Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

[Jack by the hedge]

Personalities aren't relevant. It doesn't matter if Sibrel is a twit and Aldrin a lovely chap. Dr. David Groves was important because he stamped his professional authority onto his study. Otherwise, I don't believe A&W or Percy have any intent to fake anything. Sure, they might be wrong but they are in good faith, albeit they have literature to sell.

I don't believe you don't believe they intended to deceive. Not if you have read this thread.

Impasse.

 

[threadworm]

Personalities aren't relevant. It doesn't matter if Sibrel is a twit and Aldrin a lovely chap. Dr. David Groves was important because he stamped his professional authority onto his study. Otherwise, I don't believe A&W or Percy have any intent to fake anything. Sure, they might be wrong but they are in good faith, albeit they have literature to sell.

Your opinions about motives are similarly irrelevant. Facts matter. You are not in possession of them, largely because the people you rely on for your sources make sure you don't, and because you fail to find them for yourself.

How did Apollo mission imagery contain details they could not have known in advance?

 

[Vixen]

2. 50mph

Please continue. I want to hear how the earth’s rotation fits into this analogy.

Edit: Before you continue, I’d going to ask you not to switch horses midstream and remind you that your argument is an objection to how the photos TV footage was transmitted to earth and how the fact that the Earth is rotating and how a “geopositioned satellite involved in the transmittion (not capturing the footage, this is something you’ve just introduced into your argument) is important to your argument. Remember that, please don’t alter your argument to make it look like you were arguing something else.

Correct re Exercise 2. Herewith, Exercise 3. Consider the following:

It is 1887*. You are adrift in a boat in the middle of the sea or ocean, with lapping waves and no sign of land anywhere you look. You had to abandon ship a couple of days before and now food and drink stock is beginning to run out. How on Earth** do you position yourself? Thankfully, your companion, Kimo Säpi***, is now stirring and when he awakes he discovers an old tool box. He fumbles around it and finds a simple instrument. Within fifteen minutes or so, he is able to tell you exactly what latitude you are on. Your trusted friend then spots your pocket watch hanging from your waistcoat (for you are Victorian). He asks if you know how to calculate G.M.T. from the current time on your pocket watch. Happenstance, you do, indeed! So after a few minutes, Kimo tells you what the longitude is, where you are at. How can it be?!

1. Question 1: Describe what was that simple instrument Kimo Säpi likely used to position you, with reference to the natural elements, such as planets or stars - including the Sun and Moon, if appropriate - in relation to the horizon as far as the eye can see.
2. Question 2: Explain how your trusted friend managed to position your longitude location just from knowing the current time at G.M.T.
3. Question 3: Kimo Säpi tells you that your coordinates are Latitude N 51° 07.6' 23.2" Longitude W 009° 43' 36.7", give or take a few nautical miles error margin. You find an old atlas in the aforesaid toolbox. Where is the nearest land and how far away in nautical miles?
4. Question 4: Whilst you are busy, perhaps explain, with reference to natural phenomena (see Q1) how you set about ensuring you are heading in the right direction towards land, without a compass.

Notes

* There is no GPS, smartphone, radio or satellite
** No pun intended
***Sorry, I couldn't help myself

 

[threadworm]

What relevance does any of that waste of bandwidth have to do with anything?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Correct re Exercise 2. Herewith, Exercise 3. Consider the following:

It is 1887*. You are adrift in a boat in the middle of the sea or ocean, with lapping waves and no sign of land anywhere you look. You had to abandon ship a couple of days before and now food and drink stock is beginning to run out. How on Earth** do you position yourself? Thankfully, your companion, Kimo Säpi***, is now stirring and when he awakes he discovers an old tool box. He fumbles around it and finds a simple instrument. Within fifteen minutes or so, he is able to tell you exactly what latitude you are on. Your trusted friend then spots your pocket watch hanging from your waistcoat (for you are Victorian). He asks if you know how to calculate G.M.T. from the current time on your pocket watch. Happenstance, you do, indeed! So after a few minutes, Kimo tells you what the longitude is, where you are at. How can it be?!

1. Question 1: Describe what was that simple instrument Kimo Säpi likely used to position you, with reference to the natural elements, such as planets or stars - including the Sun and Moon, if appropriate - in relation to the horizon as far as the eye can see.
2. Question 2: Explain how your trusted friend managed to position your longitude location just from knowing the current time at G.M.T.
3. Question 3: Kimo Säpi tells you that your coordinates are Latitude N 51° 07.6' 23.2" Longitude W 009° 43' 36.7", give or take a few nautical miles error margin. You find an old atlas in the aforesaid toolbox. Where is the nearest land and how far away in nautical miles?
4. Question 4: Whilst you are busy, perhaps explain, with reference to natural phenomena (see Q1) how you set about ensuring you are heading in the right direction towards land, without a compass.

Notes

* There is no GPS, smartphone, radio or satellite
** No pun intended
***Sorry, I couldn't help myself

Please don't try to tell us how to fix a position offshore.
That's definitely stepping in to one of my area s of professional expertise.

I can see one major blunder already.

If you don't know your position and your watch isn't set to GMT you have no way of knowing GMT.

Do we have an almanac with ephemerides?

 

[wollery]

Correct re Exercise 2. Herewith, Exercise 3. Consider the following:

It is 1887*. You are adrift in a boat in the middle of the sea or ocean, with lapping waves and no sign of land anywhere you look. You had to abandon ship a couple of days before and now food and drink stock is beginning to run out. How on Earth** do you position yourself? Thankfully, your companion, Kimo Säpi***, is now stirring and when he awakes he discovers an old tool box. He fumbles around it and finds a simple instrument. Within fifteen minutes or so, he is able to tell you exactly what latitude you are on. Your trusted friend then spots your pocket watch hanging from your waistcoat (for you are Victorian). He asks if you know how to calculate G.M.T. from the current time on your pocket watch. Happenstance, you do, indeed! So after a few minutes, Kimo tells you what the longitude is, where you are at. How can it be?!

1. Question 1: Describe what was that simple instrument Kimo Säpi likely used to position you, with reference to the natural elements, such as planets or stars - including the Sun and Moon, if appropriate - in relation to the horizon as far as the eye can see.
2. Question 2: Explain how your trusted friend managed to position your longitude location just from knowing the current time at G.M.T.
3. Question 3: Kimo Säpi tells you that your coordinates are Latitude N 51° 07.6' 23.2" Longitude W 009° 43' 36.7", give or take a few nautical miles error margin. You find an old atlas in the aforesaid toolbox. Where is the nearest land and how far away in nautical miles?
4. Question 4: Whilst you are busy, perhaps explain, with reference to natural phenomena (see Q1) how you set about ensuring you are heading in the right direction towards land, without a compass.

Notes

* There is no GPS, smartphone, radio or satellite
** No pun intended
***Sorry, I couldn't help myself

How the hell does any of that connect to the necessity (or lack thereof) of a "geopositioned" satellite in communication between the Moon and the Earth?

 

[steenkh]

How did Apollo mission imagery contain details they could not have known in advance?

The best explanation is that they didn't. Even today, the deep state conspires to control all imagery from the Moon to depict what they imagined in those days. One can only speculate on the price that countries like Russia, China, and Japan is exacting for participating in this decades-long fraud against humanity.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Personalities aren't relevant. It doesn't matter if Sibrel is a twit and Aldrin a lovely chap. Dr. David Groves was important because he stamped his professional authority onto his study. Otherwise, I don't believe A&W or Percy have any intent to fake anything. Sure, they might be wrong but they are in good faith, albeit they have literature to sell.

They lied right to your face. And you bought the lie because you know so little of the subject at hand that you can't see the decision. But even as you are confronted with your own ignorance, you can never admit that you aren't too brilliant to be fooled.

And you completely ignored the substance of my post. You don't even understand the spatial relationships between the earth and moon, much less that aiming a radio telescope at the moon isn't a challenge at all.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Just taking the piss now.

The sub-second precision was slightly amusing. The Victorian pocket watch that's been free running for several days and is set to local time wherever you used to be all those days ago is among the smaller problems.

If you knew roughly where you were when you abandoned ship, that will be as accurate as anything you can measure with what you find in an old toolbox.

If as we are told you know the difference between your watch time and GMT then you already know how far West of London you are, so instead of pissing around for days you should be sailing towards the nearest land. If you really have no clue how far North you are, stretch out your arm and use your fist to measure the number of hands breadth from the horizon to the noon sun. That will get you within a few degrees which is all you need.

None of this is leading anywhere. Vixen has no idea what she was trying to say about TV and satellites.

 

[wollery]

If you don't know your position and your watch isn't set to GMT you have no way of knowing GMT.

Even if it was, a standard pocket watch from 1887 would be nowhere near accurate or reliable enough to get a good longitude.

And the instruments used in 1887 would also certainly not be capable of getting a latitude or longitude to the level of precision given in Vixen's hypothetical. Kimo Sapi is lying to you!

 

[Andy_Ross]

Even if it was, a standard pocket watch from 1887 would be nowhere near accurate or reliable enough to get a good longitude.

And the instruments used in 1887 would also certainly not be capable of getting a latitude or longitude to the level of precision given in Vixen's hypothetical. Kimo Sapi is lying to you!

They were pretty good, an 1880s Sextant is accurate to about 15 seconds of arc. The limit on accuracy would be the chronometer. A standard chrono in the 1880s would be accurate to about a second a day.

You would be able to fix your position down to about a mile in Ideal conditions with a sun shot and slightly better with a star shot.

A good quality modern sextant is accurate to about 5 seconds of arc if you spend enough.
Mine is an Astra Mk3 accurate to about 10 seconds.
Conditions are rarely perfect and I was happy to fix to within a couple of miles.

 

[wollery]

They were pretty good, an 1880s Sextant is accurate to about 15 seconds of arc. The limit on accuracy would be the chronometer. A standard chrono in the 1880s would be accurate to about a second a day.

You would be able to fix your position down to about a mile in Ideal conditions with a sun shot and slightly better with a star shot

Having been adrift for two days, and at sea for probably many more, it could have drifted quite along way from the actual time.

And how accurately would a standard pocket watch have been set? It could have been up to a minute off to start with!

If it was a properly calibrated Marine Chronometer I would accept the premise, but this is just some guy's pocket watch.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

<distracted by stuff and double-posted. Sorry>

 

[Mojo]

Just taking the piss now.

The sub-second precision was slightly amusing.

Especially since Kimo Säpi clearly doesn't know how to use prime notation.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Look for the lichen...Always look for the lichen...

Except if you are in an environment which has heavy air pollution, then that's a problem.

Fun fact: in 1977 we did a transect across Sheffield, from Attercliffe (yes, there were still some steel works and rolling mills), through the town centre, then up Porter Brook to the edge of the Peak District, monitoring numbers and species of lichen.

Again, as you were, back to Billy Wilder movies...

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Correct re Exercise 2. Herewith, Exercise 3. Consider the following:

It is 1887*. You are adrift in a boat in the middle of the sea or ocean, with lapping waves and no sign of land anywhere you look. You had to abandon ship a couple of days before and now food and drink stock is beginning to run out. How on Earth** do you position yourself? Thankfully, your companion, Kimo Säpi***, is now stirring and when he awakes he discovers an old tool box. He fumbles around it and finds a simple instrument. Within fifteen minutes or so, he is able to tell you exactly what latitude you are on. Your trusted friend then spots your pocket watch hanging from your waistcoat (for you are Victorian). He asks if you know how to calculate G.M.T. from the current time on your pocket watch. Happenstance, you do, indeed! So after a few minutes, Kimo tells you what the longitude is, where you are at. How can it be?!

1. Question 1: Describe what was that simple instrument Kimo Säpi likely used to position you, with reference to the natural elements, such as planets or stars - including the Sun and Moon, if appropriate - in relation to the horizon as far as the eye can see.
2. Question 2: Explain how your trusted friend managed to position your longitude location just from knowing the current time at G.M.T.
3. Question 3: Kimo Säpi tells you that your coordinates are Latitude N 51° 07.6' 23.2" Longitude W 009° 43' 36.7", give or take a few nautical miles error margin. You find an old atlas in the aforesaid toolbox. Where is the nearest land and how far away in nautical miles?
4. Question 4: Whilst you are busy, perhaps explain, with reference to natural phenomena (see Q1) how you set about ensuring you are heading in the right direction towards land, without a compass.

Notes

* There is no GPS, smartphone, radio or satellite
** No pun intended
***Sorry, I couldn't help myself

Counterexample:

It is 1969. You and your faithful harpooner Quoque are on a mountaintop, from which you can see home base perfectly with the naked eye. Home base already knows exactly what mountain you're on and can see that with the naked eye, as well. Both parties have working radios and high-gain antennae. To complicate matters just a bit, home base happens to be mounted on a platform that rotates one revolution every 24 hours. How would you solve the logistical problems of communicating?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Look for the lichen...Always look for the lichen...

Except if you are in an environment which has heavy air pollution, then that's a problem.

Fun fact: in 1977 we did a transect across Sheffield, from Attercliffe (yes, there were still some steel works and rolling mills), through the town centre, then up Porter Brook to the edge of the Peak District, monitoring numbers and species of lichen.

Again, as you were, back to Billy Wilder movies...

Biology O level?
We did transects of the foreshore at 3 locations around Skinningrove back in 78 when the steelworks on top of the cliffs was more than just a rolling mill. One at Skinningrove by the jetty and then half a mile along the coast either side.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Counterexample:

It is 1969. You and your faithful harpooner Quoque are on a mountaintop, from which you can see home base perfectly with the naked eye. Home base already knows exactly what mountain you're on and can see that with the naked eye, as well. Both parties have working radios and high-gain antennae. To complicate matters just a bit, home base happens to be mounted on a platform that rotates one revolution every 24 hours. How would you solve the logistical problems of communicating?

 

[Mojo]

View attachment 74982

How could anyone possibly see those flags without using a non-geopositioned satellite?

 

[catsmate]

What relevance does any of that waste of bandwidth have to do with anything?

@Vixen is attempting to distract attention.