The behaviour of UK police officers.

[Nessie]

For goodness sake! Those tens of thousands have freedom of movement and must travel to and from games. Many will use public transport. Manchester has a thriving baseball community as previously evidenced.

https://britishblindsport.org.uk/directory/manchester-baseball-club

"MBC was founded in 1947, and currently provides the only opportunity in the Greater Manchester area to play baseball."

It is based at Wythenshaw Park, a half hour drive from the city centre.

 

[Wudang]

He was carrying a baseball bat but presumably no baseball balls. And I assume he’d carry his balls in a bag. There’s a few cricket grounds and golf courses near me. People playing either tend to bring all the kit they’ll need and do so in a bag.
I’d expect to be questioned.
Back when I worked on the door of my student union a favoured weapon of local yobs was a sharpened screwdriver so they could tell police they were going to their mates place to fix a plug. The fact you don’t sharpen a screwdriver to work on plugs didn’t feature in their mythology.
The fact we don’t see the buildup to this incident leaves a big question mark to me. I’d expect him to be questioned by police in a city centre.

 

[The Common Potato]

Manchester has a thriving baseball community as previously evidenced.

Well, they can't play football.

 

[bluesjnr]

https://britishblindsport.org.uk/directory/manchester-baseball-club

"MBC was founded in 1947, and currently provides the only opportunity in the Greater Manchester area to play baseball."

It is based at Wythenshaw Park, a half hour drive from the city centre.

Do you assume none of the participants live in central Manchester?

 

[bluesjnr]

He was carrying a baseball bat but presumably no baseball balls. And I assume he’d carry his balls in a bag. There’s a few cricket grounds and golf courses near me. People playing either tend to bring all the kit they’ll need and do so in a bag.
I’d expect to be questioned.
Back when I worked on the door of my student union a favoured weapon of local yobs was a sharpened screwdriver so they could tell police they were going to their mates place to fix a plug. The fact you don’t sharpen a screwdriver to work on plugs didn’t feature in their mythology.
The fact we don’t see the buildup to this incident leaves a big question mark to me. I’d expect him to be questioned by police in a city centre.

Absolutely nobody is insisting he shouldn't be asked to account.

 

[Wudang]

Really? I’ll need to read the last few pages again.

 

[bluesjnr]

Really? I’ll need to read the last few pages again.

Ok, maybe pushing it a bit with "absolutely nobody", fair point. Surely it should be more about the behaviour of the cop in question than whether or not carrying a baseball bat and, as it looks, failing to account, deserved the reaction it got?

We can all agree (hope I'm on firmer ground here) that :-

1) It's entirely legal to carry a baseball bat anywhere in the UK.
2) A UK cop can ask any member of the public at any time to stop and account, more so if they suspect, let me generalise, "something".
3) A simple stop and account does not require you to acquiesce.
4) Failing to account might not go well

 

[Darat]

You’ll all like the stop and search mnemonic - GOWISELY

What Officers Must Do (GOWISELY)
Before carrying out a normal search, police officers should give you the acronym GOWISELY details:

• • Grounds: Explain the clear reason for their suspicion.
  • Object: State what item they are looking for.
  • Warrant card: Show their identification if they are not in uniform.
  • Identification: Give their name and shoulder number.
  • Station: Name the police station where they work.
  • Entitlement: Tell you that you can get a copy of the search record.
  • Legal power: State the specific law they are using to search you.
  • You are detained: Make it clear that you must stay with them while the search happens.

ETA: For some reason they haven’t got the “AND BE BLACK” in the mnemonic .

 

[catsmate]

Exactly .

Coming back from Decathlon with it in a bag with loads of other stuff, not really suspicious.

Walking somewhere with it and a lot of other baseball kit, likewise, but not something I recall seeing in the UK.

Walking around like Ace from Dr Who. Bit suspect

Indeed.....

 

[Wudang]

Ok, maybe pushing it a bit with "absolutely nobody", fair point. Surely it should be more about the behaviour of the cop in question than whether or not carrying a baseball bat and, as it looks, failing to account, deserved the reaction it got?

We can all agree (hope I'm on firmer ground here) that :-

1) It's entirely legal to carry a baseball bat anywhere in the UK.
2) A UK cop can ask any member of the public at any time to stop and account, more so if they suspect, let me generalise, "something".
3) A simple stop and account does not require you to acquiesce.
4) Failing to account might not go well

Yes. But sorry, again, without seeing the initial bit we don’t know how it started. Beginnings are important. They set the context. Say we see a video of two guys arguing about a spilled pint. Did it start with one guy saying “Sorry, I spilled your pint. Can I get you another?” Or “yeah I spilled your pint so ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ what?”

 

[bluesjnr]

Yes. But sorry, again, without seeing the initial bit we don’t know how it started. Beginnings are important. They set the context. Say we see a video of two guys arguing about a spilled pint. Did it start with one guy saying “Sorry, I spilled your pint. Can I get you another?” Or “yeah I spilled your pint so ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ what?”

I know how it started.

That's to say, if I believe the official police statement.

Why should I?

We can see many instances in this thread of police lying to the detriment of the public. They're beasts of prey to you and I!

They've taken to preying on us instead of protecting us. They hide around corners in vans to catch us out, they set up facial recognition camera stations to film you in the high street. They turn up at your house at ungodly times to catch you unawares for sharing social media posts. They go for low hanging fruit in civil matters, they hunt down people who espouse unpopular opinions. It's us against them, trust me.

Here's one account of the, "initial bit".

"One of our city centre officers approached a man who had a baseball bat on Market Street on Sunday 9 August,. The officer tried to engage with a man in his 30s who refused and he was eventually detained and arrested."

So, according to the police, that's exactly what happened.

 

[zooterkin]

So, was this woman straight off the boat two weeks ago, or has she been running a begging scam for months?

And isn't riding a bike on the pavement against the law? I didn't see any signs indicating a cycle path.

I'm also not surprised that the police officer asked what the auditor (I assume that's how he styles himself, though I can think of other terms) meant by "stealing from charity". I also wouldn't be surprised if bags left next to a charity bin were not technically donated; they probably count as fly tipping. (Certainly people locally have been prosecuted for fly tipping when they left rubbish next to a full bin.)

ETA: And 'a bit racist and anti-immigrant'.

To follow up. The woman was sorting through bags that were outside the charity bin. Since those bags would be considered to have been flytipped, I don't think a charge of theft would stick.

Headline* Generous gran who left donations at charity bin fined £400 for ‘flytipping’

The council ordered Pauline, who has five grandchildren, to pay £400 or risk being dragged to court

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

So, was this woman straight off the boat two weeks ago, or has she been running a begging scam for months?

And isn't riding a bike on the pavement against the law? I didn't see any signs indicating a cycle path.

I'm also not surprised that the police officer asked what the auditor (I assume that's how he styles himself, though I can think of other terms) meant by "stealing from charity". I also wouldn't be surprised if bags left next to a charity bin were not technically donated; they probably count as fly tipping. (Certainly people locally have been prosecuted for fly tipping when they left rubbish next to a full bin.)

ETA: And 'a bit racist and anti-immigrant'.

I thought Watson's name was familiar so I looked him up:

Paul Joseph Watson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, calling him "a bit" racist is comparable to saying Hitler was a great friend to and protector of the jewish people. Man's a neo-nazi too cowardly to openly admit it.

 

[Nessie]

Ok, maybe pushing it a bit with "absolutely nobody", fair point. Surely it should be more about the behaviour of the cop in question than whether or not carrying a baseball bat and, as it looks, failing to account, deserved the reaction it got?

We can all agree (hope I'm on firmer ground here) that :-

1) It's entirely legal to carry a baseball bat anywhere in the UK.
2) A UK cop can ask any member of the public at any time to stop and account, more so if they suspect, let me generalise, "something".
3) A simple stop and account does not require you to acquiesce.
4) Failing to account might not go well

Your number 1 is wrong. It is not entirely illegal to carry a baseball bat anywhere in the UK. For example, carrying one into a jewellers shop, when you are wearing a face mask. Or when there are youth gang fights taking place. Or outside your neighbours, when you have had a huge argument over something. Many places, such as a courthouse, or pub, or hospital, will not welcome you with your bat. In fact, carrying a baseball bat openly in the UK, is unusual pretty much everywhere and illegal to do so in many places and circumstances.

Your number 3 is also suspect, as the police have powers to arrest or detain for a short period of time, to make enquiries. In Scotland they have up to 6 hours. If the police have causes to suspect your possession of said bat is illegal, they can require you to acquiesce.

 

[bluesjnr]

To follow up. The woman was sorting through bags that were outside the charity bin. Since those bags would be considered to have been flytipped, I don't think a charge of theft would stick.

Headline* Generous gran who left donations at charity bin fined £400 for ‘flytipping’

The council ordered Pauline, who has five grandchildren, to pay £400 or risk being dragged to court

www.independent.co.uk

You never did look into the Theft Act did you? If you did you wouldn't be posting this nonsense in support of a lazy police officer.

Taking items from a fly-tipped pile is legally considered theft. Waste left illegally on public or private land still belongs to the person who owned it or the landowner, and removing it without permission breaks the law despite your assertions otherwise.

 

[Nessie]

...

Here's one account of the, "initial bit".

"One of our city centre officers approached a man who had a baseball bat on Market Street on Sunday 9 August,. The officer tried to engage with a man in his 30s who refused and he was eventually detained and arrested."

So, according to the police, that's exactly what happened.

So the officer did not go straight to arrest. Instead, he started the process of determining the reason why the male had the bat on him and if that possession was lawful or not under offensive weapons legislation. That is your number 3, where you made the suspect claim that people can just walk away from the police, when they are doing their duty to prevent and detect crime, using legislation that allows them to stop, and or detain for the purpose of making enquiries. People, even those who believe they have done nothing wrong, cannot just walk away from the police, when the police are making lawful, justifiable enquiries.

 

[bluesjnr]

Your number 1 is wrong. It is not entirely illegal to carry a baseball bat anywhere in the UK. For example, carrying one into a jewellers shop, when you are wearing a face mask. Or when there are youth gang fights taking place. Or outside your neighbours, when you have had a huge argument over something. Many places, such as a courthouse, or pub, or hospital, will not welcome you with your bat. In fact, carrying a baseball bat openly in the UK, is unusual pretty much everywhere and illegal to do so in many places and circumstances.

Thank you foragreeing with me!
Given that I think you mistyped I would have thought that the rest would go without saying. We're getting back to intent in almost all of your examples aren't we.

That doesn't change the fact that it's not illegal to carry a baseball bat.

A courthouse, or pub, or hospital, may not welcome an individual with a bat but they cannot be charged for attempting to enter while carrying, unless some other action ensues.

Carrying a baseball bat openly in the UK, is unusual pretty much everywhere, I agree. Unusual is not a crime

Your number 3 is also suspect, as the police have powers to arrest or detain for a short period of time, to make enquiries. In Scotland they have up to 6 hours. If the police have causes to suspect your possession of said bat is illegal, they can require you to acquiesce.

My number 3 is entirely correct, if you read for understanding.

What is happening here is that you leaning on your previous career and that career encourages police officers to play fast and loose with the law and to inconvenience law abiding citizens for the slightest challenge to their ego.

Now, the bit your conveniently leaving out about detention, do you want to tell everybody or shall I?

Given that many of the successful civil claims made against the police are for poor performance in this area it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't know. I'm sure you do though, just as I'm sure that police officers routinely abuse the process.

 

[bluesjnr]

So the officer did not go straight to arrest. Instead, he started the process of determining the reason why the male had the bat on him and if that possession was lawful or not under offensive weapons legislation.

That's correct. According to the police, who are amongst the most dishonest people on the planet. I'll accept it on face value, which ain't much.

That is your number 3,

No it's not, you are now lying.

where you made the suspect claim that people can just walk away from the police, when they are doing their duty to prevent and detect crime, using legislation that allows them to stop, and or detain for the purpose of making enquiries.

I never wrote anything like this. Why are you lying?

People, even those who believe they have done nothing wrong, cannot just walk away from the police, when the police are making lawful, justifiable enquiries.

Unless they are detained and a certain set of circumstances, that you insist on leaving out, exist, they very much can. Cops hate that inconvenient fact and it's No 1 on their list of fragile ego triggers.

 

[zooterkin]

You never did look into the Theft Act did you? If you did you wouldn't be posting this nonsense in support of a lazy police officer.

You'd be wrong. The circumstances are not identical to that case, so there is still some doubt as to whether the outcome would be the same. Regardless, that doesn't mean a conviction would be guaranteed.

Taking items from a fly-tipped pile is legally considered theft. Waste left illegally on public or private land still belongs to the person who owned it or the landowner, and removing it without permission breaks the law despite your assertions otherwise.

In that case, the woman wasn't stealing from charity.
Do these auditors have nothing better to do than worry about the ownership of old clothes that people have thrown away? Or do they, perhaps, have an ulterior motive which can only be heard if you can hear high frequencies?

 

[smartcooky]

He was carrying a baseball bat but presumably no baseball balls. And I assume he’d carry his balls in a bag. There’s a few cricket grounds and golf courses near me. People playing either tend to bring all the kit they’ll need and do so in a bag.
I’d expect to be questioned.
Back when I worked on the door of my student union a favoured weapon of local yobs was a sharpened screwdriver so they could tell police they were going to their mates place to fix a plug. The fact you don’t sharpen a screwdriver to work on plugs didn’t feature in their mythology.
The fact we don’t see the buildup to this incident leaves a big question mark to me. I’d expect him to be questioned by police in a city centre.

He said he was on his way to a friend's to pay baseball. Maybe his friend had the baseballs?

I played cricket for 30+ years. I had a couple of bats, a couple of pairs of pads, a helmet, a box, a thigh pad, a forearm pad, boots, shirts, long whites and a short sleeved cardigan. I was a wicketkeeper so I had a pair of wicketkeeping gloves and a couple of pairs of inners. They would all fit in my big kit bag. Would you like to know what I didn't have in my bag? A cricket ball. Not one, not even a cheap, two-piece Kookburra!!