The behaviour of UK police officers.

[malbui]

In a thread highlighting the behaviour of UK police, where we're discussing the playing of baseball in England, I'm not seeing the relevance?

There was precisely one GB-born player in the squad, and he’s always lived in the US. So the existence of a GB team in no way demonstrates that it’s a serious sport in the country. I maintain my position that seeing someone carrying a baseball bat in the UK away from a sports field is at least cause for a raised eyebrow, if not a collaring by the rozzers.

 

[bluesjnr]

There was precisely one GB-born player in the squad, and he’s always lived in the US. So the existence of a GB team in no way demonstrates that it’s a serious sport in the country. I maintain my position that seeing someone carrying a baseball bat in the UK away from a sports field is at least cause for a raised eyebrow, if not a collaring by the rozzers.

Ok, but nobody I can see is saying that it shouldn't raise an eyebrow. What people seem to be saying, well, I am at any rate, is that responding, "I'm off to play baseball", should suffice if stopped.

What I'm getting from you is the vibe that if one responds in that way it's a case of, "It's not what I consider a serious enough sport so you'd better do better, or you're nicked". You seem to be making the case, that because you don't think it's a game taken seriously enough in the UK, the likelihood is you're off to stove somebodies napper in. That's skewed thinking or, as we've seen, cop thinking.

Diverse national team aside we have, in the UK, the multi-tier national league, other independent leagues and around 20 universities also fielding teams. If you've a mind to, you could visit here and see more than just a couple of teams playing out of Manchester. Manchester being where (to some) the utterly unbelievable legal reason carry a baseball bat, you must be a wrong'un, incident took place.

In total, it's up around 100 registered teams UK wide with active players estimated north of 22,500 participants.

Granted, it's small fry when compared to other sports but there is more than just a few people round the local park playing rounders going on here.

 

[bluesjnr]

This guys YT channel is bit racist and anti immigrant but if you can get past that you'll see an example of a cop completely ignoring a crime underway.

It's funny that, isn't it? The way that legal activity is criminalised but actual theft is... well.... ignored, I suppose!

In fact, in this case, it's excused.

 

[malbui]

That’s not what I’m saying but I’m too tired to argue the point.

 

[The Common Potato]

but please stop making up fanciful scenarios to argue against, none of which bare any relation whatsoever to what actually happened

Nessie's not even an American cop!

 

[smartcooky]

This guys YT channel is bit racist and anti immigrant but if you can get past that you'll see an example of a cop completely ignoring a crime underway.

It's funny that, isn't it? The way that legal activity is criminalised but actual theft is... well.... ignored, I suppose!

In fact, in this case, it's excused.

Not interested in a theft in progress, but she'll be on your doorstep faster than you can say "economic migrant" if you post a few hurty words on Facebook

 

[smartcooky]

Did you look at the squad that represented GB in that tournament?

Irrelevant

 

[smartcooky]

In a thread highlighting the behaviour of UK police, where we're discussing the playing of baseball in England, I'm not seeing the relevance?

I'm not making an argument about baseball, as much as I am arguing that its wrong to assume that someone carrying a baseball bat must be doing so for nefarious purposes simply because baseball is not a common sport in the UK

 

[jimbob]

There was precisely one GB-born player in the squad, and he’s always lived in the US. So the existence of a GB team in no way demonstrates that it’s a serious sport in the country. I maintain my position that seeing someone carrying a baseball bat in the UK away from a sports field is at least cause for a raised eyebrow, if not a collaring by the rozzers.

Exactly .

Coming back from Decathlon with it in a bag with loads of other stuff, not really suspicious.

Walking somewhere with it and a lot of other baseball kit, likewise, but not something I recall seeing in the UK.

Walking around like Ace from Dr Who. Bit suspect

 

[bluesjnr]

Exactly .

Coming back from Decathlon with it in a bag with loads of other stuff, not really suspicious.

Walking somewhere with it and a lot of other baseball kit, likewise, but not something I recall seeing in the UK.

Walking around like Ace from Dr Who. Bit suspect

Decathlon? Baseball is part of the decathlon? That is suspicious........ but not illegal.

You have the baseball bat guy as reminiscent of that character? That's a bit of a stretch to make your point.

Why don't you address the method used to investigate that suspicion?

It's interesting how many of you are concentrating on how suspicious the guy looked, going about his business carrying a baseball bat in the street, instead of how it was handled by a suspicious police officer.

Look, to save you all keyboard taps. I'm sure we all agree that it might look suspicious but you have to agree it's entirely legal. The only thing left to discuss is the method by which the police officer established the guys innocence and bear in mind his innocence was established.

 

[Mojo]

Not interested in a theft in progress, but she'll be on your doorstep faster than you can say "economic migrant" if you post a few hurty words on Facebook

This is the real problem with the police challenging people carrying baseball bats in city centres. If they don't wait for them to commit a crime with it, the right can't complain that the police should be doing something to prevent violence in city centres instead of arresting people for hurty words.

 

[zooterkin]

This guys YT channel is bit racist and anti immigrant but if you can get past that you'll see an example of a cop completely ignoring a crime underway.

It's funny that, isn't it? The way that legal activity is criminalised but actual theft is... well.... ignored, I suppose!

In fact, in this case, it's excused.

So, was this woman straight off the boat two weeks ago, or has she been running a begging scam for months?

And isn't riding a bike on the pavement against the law? I didn't see any signs indicating a cycle path.

I'm also not surprised that the police officer asked what the auditor (I assume that's how he styles himself, though I can think of other terms) meant by "stealing from charity". I also wouldn't be surprised if bags left next to a charity bin were not technically donated; they probably count as fly tipping. (Certainly people locally have been prosecuted for fly tipping when they left rubbish next to a full bin.)

ETA: And 'a bit racist and anti-immigrant'.

 

[Nessie]

Its not a claim, its a statement of fact. On any given day, I could go walking down the road carrying bats, golf clubs etc, and never even be approached by police. Mind you, I live in a free country, with free speech, where the cops aren't out to put everyone they see on the wrong side of the law.



If, if if. ... You're making stuff up again, creating a strawman scenario and arguing for it. The incident in question (man carrying baseball bat and arrogant, ◊◊◊◊ of a cop attacking him) did not take place "in an area, where gang violence was rampant and there had been ongoing trouble". Please stick to what actually happened, a cop came up behind a man innocently carrying a bat in a pedestrian area where the was no trouble and nothing untoward going on, grabbed him without warning and assaulted him.

Its obvious from your comments that you're an ex-cop, and you want to take this cop's side, but please stop making up fanciful scenarios to argue against, none of which bare any relation whatsoever to what actually happened. Argue THIS scenario without adding or altering things from your imagination.

What I find most disturbing about this incident is the statements made by police that man refused to engage when the officer tried to talk to him, leading to him being detained and arrested. As a general member of the public, you have no legal obligation to answer general questions or engage in a conversation with a police officer. Under the right to remain silent, you can decline to answer questions or walk away, provided you are not detained, under arrest, or operating a motor vehicle.

The claim I asked you to evidence was "Walking down a footpath carrying a cricket bat or a softball bat, still in its wrapper would not, on its own, be accepted by any court as "reasonable suspicion", and young cop that detained a person purely under those circumstances would get a flea in his ear from his supervisor.". You clearly have no evidence.

I asked AI about crime in Manchester city centre and its answer was;

"Manchester records approximately 164.2 crimes per 1,000 residents, placing it above the national average for England and Wales. The primary reported offenses involve violence against the person (roughly 27% of all recorded crime), theft and shoplifting (19%), and public order or antisocial behavior (10%)"

Let us stick to what happened, which is a male was seen openly carrying a baseball bat in Manchester city centre, where there are problems with youth violence. A baseball bat is more commonly associated with crime that sport in the UK.

I have not taken the cop's side. If it is correct he just arrested the male without any cause other than his possession of the baseball bat, he acted too quickly and his ability to arrest and control was woeful. You refuse to acknowledge we do not know what happened prior to what we saw with the arrest on the video. I have been more open minded than you, as you assume there was no interaction, or complaint, before the police officer arrested the male.

As a member of the general public, if you carry what could be an offensive weapon under the various acts across the UK, in a public place, you have to have a reasonable excuse. If you are approached by the police and fail to provide that excuse, you are liable to be arrested. If you remain silent and so do not provide a reasonable excuse, you will find yourself being reported for prosecution. You were ignorant of the reasonable excuse part of the legislation and the police have a duty to enquire into what that excuse is. The public cannot walk about carrying what could break the offensive weapon law and just ignore the police, who then have to do nothing.

 

[bluesjnr]

So, was this woman straight off the boat two weeks ago, or has she been running a begging scam for months?

And isn't riding a bike on the pavement against the law? I didn't see any signs indicating a cycle path.

I'm also not surprised that the police officer asked what the auditor (I assume that's how he styles himself, though I can think of other terms) meant by "stealing from charity". I also wouldn't be surprised if bags left next to a charity bin were not technically donated; they probably count as fly tipping. (Certainly people locally have been prosecuted for fly tipping when they left rubbish next to a full bin.)

ETA: And 'a bit racist and anti-immigrant'.

I see you couldn't get past, "that". It's a pity because the woman's status is irrelevant to me and the point of the post. You've styled your response, in the main, as if I didn't identify the racial, anti immigrant slant right at the outset. What's going on there?

I don't know the background of the woman and don't care. She was thieving. Have you heard of theft by finding? Familiarise yourself with R v Basildon, then you'll learn about the Theft Act 1968.

I neither know nor care about the background of the guy filming or whether he was riding the bike illegally. If he was then the officer slipped up yet again and officers ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ up is very much central to this thread.

You can hate auditors all you like but that doesn't mean they don't highlight serious breaches in police procedures and attitudes.

 

[Nessie]

Irrelevant

Relevant.

What you ignore;

1 - what happened before the video of the arrest started?
2 - there is a defence, which the police have to enquire into regarding reasonable excuse and if a person fails to cooperate, they then have no reasonable excuse.
3 - young males cause the most amount of violent crime in city centres and he was carrying a baseball bat in a city centre.
4 - baseball bats are more commonly associated with crime than sport in the UK.

 

[Nessie]

In a thread highlighting the behaviour of UK police, where we're discussing the playing of baseball in England, I'm not seeing the relevance?

Baseball bats are more commonly associated with and used in the commission of crime, than to play baseball, when in the hands of young males in city centres.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm not making an argument about baseball, as much as I am arguing that its wrong to assume that someone carrying a baseball bat must be doing so for nefarious purposes simply because baseball is not a common sport in the UK

It would appear that he bought the bat from a shop not 3,000 miles away. They sell the things, so presumably they have legitimate customers wanting them.

 

[bluesjnr]

Baseball bats are more commonly associated with and used in the commission of crime, than to play baseball, when in the hands of young males in city centres.

Cop think. Putting people on the wrong side of the law based on location and age.

You've got the number of people playing baseball quoted above and it's in the tens of thousands.

Again, very few, if any, people are arguing that you shouldn't be wanting to talk about why they have the article on them but you are arguing why they must be criminal.

 

[Nessie]

Cop think. Putting people on the wrong side of the law based on location and age.

You've got the number of people playing baseball quoted above and it's in the tens of thousands.

Again, very few, if any, people are arguing that you shouldn't be wanting to talk about why they have the article on them but you are arguing why they must be criminal.

Yes, age and location are used to determine if the possession of something is a crime under offensive weapons laws, as they can account for what would be a reasonable excuse. A group of kids with an adult, with a baseball bat, some baseballs and a few catcher's mitts in a park, not a crime.

Tens of thousands of people do not gather in city centre pedestrian precincts to play baseball. In fact, no one has ever done that as those places are not suitable to play a game that needs a large open area. The main reason youths take baseball bats into town, is to commit crime.

I am arguing why the possession of a baseball bat in Manchester city centre will reasonably attract the attention of the police, curious as to what their reasonable excuse is, for possessing that item.

 

[bluesjnr]

Yes, age and location are used to determine if the possession of something is a crime under offensive weapons laws, as they can account for what would be a reasonable excuse. A group of kids with an adult, with a baseball bat, some baseballs and a few catcher's mitts in a park, not a crime.

Tens of thousands of people do not gather in city centre pedestrian precincts to play baseball. In fact, no one has ever done that as those places are not suitable to play a game that needs a large open area. The main reason youths take baseball bats into town, is to commit crime.

I am arguing why the possession of a baseball bat in Manchester city centre will reasonably attract the attention of the police, curious as to what their reasonable excuse is, for possessing that item.

For goodness sake! Those tens of thousands have freedom of movement and must travel to and from games. Many will use public transport. Manchester has a thriving baseball community as previously evidenced.