Understanding the Conservative Mindset

[Roger Ramjets]

so there's some evidence, right? do we care?

Well yeah, but that's just one guy so it's only one data point. And who is he anyway? Donald Trump? I never met the guy. A lot of people are saying he's a Democrat. Democrats are corrupt... so corrupt. Nobody knows more about corruption than me. I don’t have a corrupt bone in my body. Democrats are the biggest threat to the World!

 

[dirtywick]

And if this thread was about Trump or his pardons you'd have some semblance of a point.

As I said earlier, if we are going to play the "you dont care about X if you voted for that candidate that was alleged to have done X" game, especially if we start including pardons/clemency for X, it doesnt look good for either party. And really doesnt say much about the electorate.

well he’s selling the pardons but whatever, you guys don’t seem to care about that anyway so why bother with being precise.

i’m not playing a game. i’m asking your thoughts about something that happened. this thread is about the conservative mindset, but the conduct of the republican president is apparently unimportant. you guys always shrink away when it comes to discussing that. seems to be something a lot conservatives have in common

but i do think that says a lot about the electorate. fill out all the surveys you want saying you care about crime, then elect criminals who abuse the system and you don’t have a word to say. i think that says a lot.

anyway, at least next time someone says conservatives don’t care about white collar crime you won’t be so confused where it’s coming from

 

[dirtywick]

All you are showing is that those who are close to power are more likely to get pardons. Like this. Whether you're Clinton's brother, Biden's son, or Trump's business partner, it's all good. You've still haven't shown a quid pro quo. But all of this is very OT for the thread.

thats bs and it's not off topic, evidence was requested and it was provided.

the quid pro quo for cz was binance investing into trump's stupid stablecoin on his crypto platform in exchange for a pardon. that's in the two articles i'm assuming you haven't read. here's two more i quoted that are even more explicit

Trump pardoned Paul Walczak (who evaded millions of dollars in taxes) after Walczak’s mother raised millions of dollars for MAGA candidates and paid a million dollars to dine with the president at Mar-a-Lago. Trevor Milton—the securities fraudster mentioned above—donated $1.8 million to Trump’s campaign before a presidential pardon wiped out all $660 million of his restitution obligations. (That is, if nothing else, an impressive ROI.)

 

[rdwight]

well he’s selling the pardons but whatever, you guys don’t seem to care about that anyway so why bother with being precise.

i’m not playing a game. i’m asking your thoughts about something that happened. this thread is about the conservative mindset, but the conduct of the republican president is apparently unimportant. you guys always shrink away when it comes to discussing that. seems to be something a lot conservatives have in common

but i do think that says a lot about the electorate. fill out all the surveys you want saying you care about crime, then elect criminals who abuse the system and you don’t have a word to say. i think that says a lot.

anyway, at least next time someone says conservatives don’t care about white collar crime you won’t be so confused where it’s coming from

Again, do you agree with what you quoted me asking? You dont seem to be willing to answer if your same rules apply to liberals.

Conservatives consistently elect tough on crime politicians. From local to national office. They campaign on that very thing. Surveys give insight into the mindset of those voters. Public support for those initiatives show their interests. If you want to disagree, show something to that affect.

Trump bad. Got it. Every convo here seems to devolve into pointing that out, repeatedly, as if its some kind of get out it of jail free card for making an argument of your own.

I could point to the enrichment of politicians after getting into office, becoming savant traders during their tenure or making millions after. Or give other examples of dem politicians that received support after criminal or moral actions i doubt anyone here would support. You would respond with rep politicians and their sins. That does nothing for the conversation.

 

[Darat]

Don't you mean "claim" to be tough on crimes? And as far as I can see that means tough on only a certain kind or kinds of crime.

 

[Pixel42]

When I point to a massive iceberg, pointing to an ice cube does not work as a distraction. Size does matter.

 

[rdwight]

Don't you mean "claim" to be tough on crimes? And as far as I can see that means tough on only a certain kind or kinds of crime.

Based on . . .

 

[dirtywick]

Again, do you agree with what you quoted me asking? You dont seem to be willing to answer if your same rules apply to liberals.

check the thread title

but yeah, the same rules apply.

Conservatives consistently elect tough on crime politicians. From local to national office. They campaign on that very thing. Surveys give insight into the mindset of those voters. Public support for those initiatives show their interests. If you want to disagree, show something to that affect.

i have shown something to that effect, they elected a president who claimed to be tough on crime, then committed a litany of crimes and conservative politicians and conservative media and conservative voters avoid even talking about it at all. gives the appearance that conservatives, including you, don't actually care about that stuff. you said you hadn't heard about it, and now that you have are getting mad that i brought it up. i've explained this multiple times. you just don't want to accept that answer.

Trump bad. Got it. Every convo here seems to devolve into pointing that out, repeatedly, as if its some kind of get out it of jail free card for making an argument of your own.

do you got it? it doesn't seem like you got it.

you might be sick of hearing about him, i can tell you i am. but, he's the president, leader of the major conservative party in the united states, chosen through a primary (unlike kamala) and elected by the voters. and he's abusing the power of his office stealing billions of dollars through a never ending stream of white collar crimes, and taking money in bribes to pardon his friends and allies when they commit white collar crimes.

and you asked for evidence that conservative voters don't care about that kind of stuff, and i pointed out that they don't care when the leader of their party is doing it right in front of their faces. and you're not even denying it, you said you didn't know about it and now that you do, you just don't care. you're mad i brought it up, because trump bad and you're sick of hearing about how bad he is. but, isn't that exactly what you asked for? conservatives not caring about white collar crime? how can i be more clear?

I could point to the enrichment of politicians after getting into office, becoming savant traders during their tenure or making millions after. Or give other examples of dem politicians that received support after criminal or moral actions i doubt anyone here would support. You would respond with rep politicians and their sins. That does nothing for the conversation.

i don't care if you bring any of that stuff up if at some point you give your thoughts on trump's pay for play pardon scheme as it relates to conservatives caring about white collar crime.

 

[rdwight]

check the thread title

but yeah, the same rules apply.

Ok. No one cares about anything then.

i have shown something to that effect, they elected a president who claimed to be tough on crime, then committed a litany of crimes and conservative politicians and conservative media and conservative voters avoid even talking about it at all. gives the appearance that conservatives, including you, don't actually care about that stuff. you said you hadn't heard about it, and now that you have are getting mad that i brought it up. i've explained this multiple times. you just don't want to accept that answer.

Because, and stick with me here, its a stupid arguing point. As I said above, by your standard no voter cares about any issue.

i don't care if you bring any of that stuff up if at some point you give your thoughts on trump's pay for play pardon scheme as it relates to conservatives caring about white collar crime.

Hate the use in general (presidential pardons). Without looking into specifics id assume his has been far more blatant than his predecessors.

Yes, as in I didnt research into it. Let's not act like Marc Rich didnt happen and its unprecedented. But pushing the envelope and teetering on the line of legality to enrich himself is par for the course for Trump. An outlier in the worst way.

I gave my opinion. Whether you find it sufficient for whatever gotcha you are attempting is irrelevant to me.

 

[dirtywick]

saying you didn't research something isn't giving an opinion on it.

that’s you saying you didn’t look into it and making a guess as to what it’s about. presumably because you don’t care enough to do so. and i’ve even provided several sources explaining it since then.

in any case i don’t think it’s a stupid point, particularly as it relates to the conservative mindset.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Don't you mean "claim" to be tough on crimes? And as far as I can see that means tough on only a certain kind or kinds of crime.

It is not certain kinds of crime it is certain colors of criminals. You can commit 1.8 billion in medicare fraud and get elected to the senate as a republican.

 

[d4m10n]

And as far as I can see that means tough on only a certain kind or kinds of crime.

I literally posted a study about this upthread.

No one here has shown that more conservative regions/states/voters are soft on white collar crime, using actual data.

Part of the "conservative mindset" is that they emphasize retribution rather than rehabilitation, pretty much across the board.

 

[Darat]

I literally posted a study about this upthread.

No one here has shown that more conservative regions/states/voters are soft on white collar crime, using actual data.

Part of the "conservative mindset" is that they emphasize retribution rather than rehabilitation, pretty much across the board.

Well you didn't as my comment was not about any particular political grouping but a statement generalised across all politicians.

That said - I can't see how you can make any firm statements from that report about people today, it is nearly thirty years old, the political landscape today is very different to 30 years ago.

To the "No one here has shown that more conservative regions/states/voters are soft on white collar crime, using actual data." the USA seems determined to make actual crime statistics impossible hard to get!

 

[d4m10n]

I can't see how you can make any firm statements from that report about people today, it is nearly thirty years old, the political landscape today is very different to 30 years ago.

If conservatism means anything at all, it has to include not shifting one's fundamental ideological commitments over such a short timescale as that.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Part of the "conservative mindset" is that they emphasize retribution rather than rehabilitation, pretty much across the board.

And are against restitution to victims see the hundreds of millions stripped from victims by Trumps pardons. They support that, hell they made a white collar criminal Ambassador to France our oldest and solidest ally.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If conservatism means anything at all, it has to include not shifting one's fundamental ideological commitments over such a short timescale as that.

Then we just have to stop people identifing incorrectly as conservative, and demand that they call them selves reactionaries.

 

[d4m10n]

They support that, hell they made a white collar criminal Ambassador to France our oldest and solidest ally.

Is this the Trumpism thread? My mistake; I'll show myself out.

 

[jimbob]

Are you proposing that conservatives do not want white collar criminals locked up or immune from increased sentencing for habitual reoffenders?

It is hard to take your position seriously when I also dont see any progressive rehabilitation advocacy groups focusing on white collar criminals. They actually seem to go in the opposite direction.

Some people can be rehabilitated and some can't. In my opinion, in the UK at least, in my opinion, white collar criminals are often presumed to be too likely to be rehabilitated. Many white collar criminals steal far more, and had far more options to honestly get money.

As for as rehabilitation is concerned, the UK family-run company, Timpsons, is notable for employing former prisoners (amongst various other social initiatives). It seems to be quite successful, so many criminals can be rehabilitated.

 

[jimbob]

Then we just have to stop people identifing incorrectly as conservative, and demand that they call them selves reactionaries.

I prefer "radical right wing authoritarians" as they are not really going to even an imaginary past. But a dystopian future - possibly not Bladerunner (except for some like Thiel) but more like RoboCop.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Is this the Trumpism thread? My mistake; I'll show myself out.

Does this thread cover american concervatism or is it some philosphical point not anything to do with the real world? Republicans don't care about white collar crime and haven't for a long time, if they did Rick Scott would never have been elected to the senate after running a company that did 1.7 billion in medicare fraud. Explain that with the idea that republicans are actually conservative like they claim to be.