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Perpetual motion machine examination rules, please.

That is used to saturate the thyroid with iodine because the thyroid is especially sensative to radiation and one of the more common fission products is iodine-131. Thus, if a reactor were to get blown up or a bomb went off, you'd take it so that it would offer some degree of protection from the iodine, which is considered one of the most dangerous isotopes in the fallout.

It doesn't actually protect you from radiation in gernal though...just from that one elememnt in a radioactive form.

If there is a certain kind of isotope which you are exposed to, you may want to take a suplimet which would prevent it from being absorbed through it's noramal channels in the body. For example, cesium-137 mimics potassium. So if you find yourself in a cesium-137 contaminated enviornment, you might want to consdier a potassium suppliemnt.

Calcium would be used for strontium-90 and plutonium (amoungst others) and would offer some degree of protection from getting them locked into your bones. Well..."some" degree of protection.

Also...it works against magic perpetual-motion stuff.

-Steve
 
Gr8wight,
Odd. It was my understanding that it does.
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shuuuu!, don't tell da Vinci. He might roll over in his grave.

Gene

ps: my point was that no matter how great your mind if your premise is wrong you will only accidently come to the right conclusion. I think hermann's conclusion isn't accidently right. His reasoning was faulty (circular) and it makes you wonder how much of that faulty reasoning permeated his other thoughts.
 
AgingYoung said:
Gr8wight,

shuuuu!, don't tell da Vinci. He might roll over in his grave.

Gene

ps: my point was that no matter how great your mind if your premise is wrong you will only accidently come to the right conclusion. I think hermann's conclusion isn't accidently right. His reasoning was faulty (circular) and it makes you wonder how much of that faulty reasoning permeated his other thoughts.
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In light of this realisation: How would you evaluate your own thinking when it comes to PMMs?
 
Ririon,
Your question isn't too clear so I'll do a little guessing. My one point was that perhaps the greatest mind that ever lived (da Vinci) had some misconceptions. Anyone can be wrong and I'm no exception.

My point about Hermann's circular reasoning was that if someone is going to blatantly reduce their argument to that extent to support their philosophy that same flawed reasoning might be in other aspects of their work yet maybe not as blatant. Hermann's conclusion doesn't follow from his premise. His conclusion may or may not be correct though; I recognize that.

Newton's 3rd law (for every action there's an opposite and equal reaction) is a description of the movement of the moment by moment actions and reactions of mass. Those mass are at all times within the 'field' of gravity. If you could cause mass to 'time travel' then Newton's 3rd law would need to be revised. Newton's 3rd law is relevant when you're considering sequential time but if you could figure out how to rearrange the moments and have them happen out of sequence you might be able to figure out how to make a wheel turn. If you 'know' that gravity is a conservative force you might not consider ideas like that. There are several ideas that I've considered that might allow me to prove that some of the greatest minds that ever lived are wrong. We know it's possible they can be and we also know that they've used questionable reasoning.

I am no where near one of the greatest minds that ever lived. Not even close. :) I might be able to see some simple concepts that I can't explain in the detail that others could. Even though I can't describe what's happening in my models I still can model them. I'm not trying so much to make a model of perpetual motion as I am attempting to see the effects of causing mass to 'disappear' in one moment and 'reappear' in another before it would have arrived there if it rode around on the wheel (acceleration). I have another idea of how to 'cause' that acceleration. It's more a 'virtual' acceleration than it is actual but the effects are the same. All of my ideas are the result of me being skeptical of the reasoning and conclusion of some of the greatest minds that have ever lived. If I trusted their reasoning I wouldn't even try. I prefer to think for myself.

Gene
 
I'd like to talk about the idea of pixie dust or better yet magic pixie dust used to cause perpetual motion. If you could make or obtain some of this magic pixie dust I'm sure you'd know how to use it to cause perpetual motion. I have no idea where to get it or how to make it much less how I would use it. I would think if you can get some then you know what you can do with it. You know. :eye-poppi

Gene
 
AgingYoung said:
Newton's 3rd law (for every action there's an opposite and equal reaction) is a description of the movement of the moment by moment actions and reactions of mass. Those mass are at all times within the 'field' of gravity. If you could cause mass to 'time travel' then Newton's 3rd law would need to be revised. Newton's 3rd law is relevant when you're considering sequential time but if you could figure out how to rearrange the moments and have them happen out of sequence you might be able to figure out how to make a wheel turn. If you 'know' that gravity is a conservative force you might not consider ideas like that. There are several ideas that I've considered that might allow me to prove that some of the greatest minds that ever lived are wrong. We know it's possible they can be and we also know that they've used questionable reasoning.
Gene
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... actually, Newton formulated the law as simultanious action and reaction ... i.e. an object sits on a table, there is a force due to gravity on the object. The reaction to this force is an equal and opposite force acting on the Earth at exactly the same time. Time travel dosn't change this, as the forces are simultanious.

However, Newton's Laws have already been overhauled. They are only correct on average.

There are many descriptions for perpetual motion involving various violations. Any violation of causality could set up perpetual motion ... and thus time travel should do the trick.

BTW: total mass/energy conversion dosn't do it either (example used by Richard Feynman) ... there are quantum examples too - trying to exploit quantum uncertainty.
 
Simon,
I always enjoy your posts. When I posted that Hermann's idea of conservation was amended when we figured out that we could change mass to energy I wasn't suggesting that is what I was thinking. My point was that Hermann wasn't entirely accurate. A while ago someone called you on the idea that scientific thought has changed during the last century but I don't think you answered them. Who ever that was if you're reading this that's one example.

One of the ideas I'm considering is force being the product of mass and speed. I know that I can't change the mass but I can cause that mass to accelerate and thereby change the force. If I can accelerate it from one moment in the wheel where gravity causes it to have less torque (the first 30 degrees) to another moment where gravity would have more of an effect (around 90 degrees) and get it there before it would if it had moved around on it's moment arm then I would effectively be time traveling in the universe of my wheel.

Some have said that it would take energy to move that mass over that distance and anything I'd gain would be spent getting there. There's not much room to work with yet you can cause a group of masses to reposition as they fall and advance in their moment using gravity. The wheel has to be moving slower than the acceleration gravity would have on that group before they begin to fall. That group would be in motion yet they would move faster than the wheel after they began to fall. Still not having much room to work in you can cause them to reposition back where they came from using gravity. In that shift they would be decelerating. That's some of what I'm attempting.

The factors of time and distance make the product of speed. Time is as hard to change as mass. :) I have found an interesting way to shrink distance. If a slight change in distance can be the equivalent of a larger one you will effectively increase your speed by that factor. For example if you're moving 60 feet a minute yet your 'foot' is actually an inch a rate of 5 feet a minute is the equivalent of 60 feet a minute.

Basically to increase the force I need to increase the speed of the mass and if I can shrink the distance (effectively) I can do that. If I have a governor on the speed of the wheel or control the rate of its moments I can jump around it in a time travel fashion. In the universe of my wheel I can position forces in the moments I want them to be in. That's what I'm attempting. It would be easier if I could have some magic pixie dust. Then I wouldn't have to think about it. :eek: If I could get my hands on some of that magic pixie dust maybe I'd sprinkle it on today's wallstreet journal and turn it into next year's journal. Then I wouldn't have to try and figure out what those blood sucking vultures are up to.

Gene
 
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AgingYoung said:
One of the ideas I'm considering is force being the product of mass and speed.
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I'd consider again, 'cos force is the product of mass and acceleration. Or more generally the rate of change of momentum with time, but since you've said the mass you're concerned with doesn't change then mass times acceleration will do.
 
I'd consider again, 'cos force is the product of mass and acceleration. Or more generally the rate of change of momentum with time, but since you've said the mass you're concerned with doesn't change then mass times acceleration will do.
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'cos, cuz? lol. There is no measurable change in the mass in a machine that moves at the rate that I'm considering. It's not possible to make a 10 pound weight be 10 pounds in the first 180 degrees of rotation then weigh 5 pounds in the next 180 degrees. You can't appreciably affect or change that mass so that it's more or less. The mass will have momentum but I don't consider that a change in the mass, making it more or less. I can change it's rate or accelerate it.

When a falling body reaches it's terminal velocity it is no longer accelerating; it's rate is constant. When that body reaches the earth and suddenly stops it has a force that is displayed in the form of a crater moving some of the earth out of the way and making a little hole to go into.

Ririon,
There was no need to say good bye; you could just do a good bye.

Gene
 
As far as I can determine, the JREF position on paranormal claims is that natural scientific explanation for the phenomenon must be excluded. If you wish to capitalize on perpetual motion, you can do that OR participate in the Million Dollar Challenge. A Nondisclosure agreement regarding the internal mechanism wouldn't be out of line for a claim like that so long as it contained a clause which stated that in the event of failure the mechanism be disclosed, especially if an attempt to defraud the JREF of one million dollars is suspected.
For example, if you put solar cells in a box, and run the box for one year in a well lit room, that wouldn't be paranormal. The machine has to accomplish some form of work, and it has to do so without consuming energy from any outside source. It also obviously can't be fueled by something so simple as a flammable liquid that has to be refilled. I could make a five hundred pound box with a small fan on it run for a long time if I had 590 lbs of fuel and a tiny fuel cell in there turning fuel into electricity- that wouldn't be "paranormal".
If nobody can know how it is working, and can't examine the inside, it's not possible to exclude things like field coils picking up and rectifying signals from an external radio transmitter, for example. I'm pretty sure they're gonna want to know what's in the box so they can exclude chicanery.
This is perfectly rational, and even the Patent Office will want to see inside the box before awarding a patent on a perpetual motion device.
If it really works, and you don't want anyone to see inside, perhaps a million dollars is too cheap a price for lack of secrecy?
 
ChaoticLimbs said:
(snippage)
This is perfectly rational, and even the Patent Office will want to see inside the box before awarding a patent on a perpetual motion device.
(snippage)
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Indeed, that's the entire point of the Patent Office, to make the details of the invention public. In return for the disclosure, you are granted exclusive use of the invention for a period of time. Or at least the ability to sue if someone violates the patent during that period of time.
 
Simon Bridge said:
There are many descriptions for perpetual motion involving various violations. Any violation of causality could set up perpetual motion ... and thus time travel should do the trick.
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I've been trying to figure out the best way to do this. I'm thinking it might be easier to go for unlimited energy rather than true perputual motion.

I'd go back in time a thousand years or so, travel to the Middle East, drive off any cavemen living in the area, build some oil wells, and ship the oil back to the present day for use as fuel.

When I'd mined all the available oil, I'd travel back in time another thousand years and etc.
 
Heck, travel back in time to the early days of the solar system, set up geothermal generators, and have them time-ship the energy to the future. You could (in theory) have 100 years worth of energy sent forward to a single time. Even better, go back in time and provide earlier scientists with the equations and instructions for building more efficient energy production facilities. Start the industrial revolution early using efficient solar energy, wind and tidal power, and other technologies and bypass coal, oil, and gas altogether.

If time-travel is possible, all bets are off :)
 
OK, I'm off this thread too. Someone be so kind as to PM me when the Perpetual Motion Machine is perfected.
 
ChaoticLimbs said:
As far as I can determine, the JREF position on paranormal claims is that natural scientific explanation for the phenomenon must be excluded. If you wish to capitalize on perpetual motion, you can do that OR participate in the Million Dollar Challenge.
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Actually, the JREF will allow a test of a perpetual motion machine under controlled observing conditions. The rationale is if it actually is a perpetual motion machine, then it must violate the laws of physics as we currently understand them. Therefore it is considered paranormal. The necessary test would be to demonstrate that the machine can indeed sustain itself with no addition of energy of any form.
 
Gr8wight said:
Actually, the JREF will allow a test of a perpetual motion machine under controlled observing conditions. The rationale is if it actually is a perpetual motion machine, then it must violate the laws of physics as we currently understand them. Therefore it is considered paranormal. The necessary test would be to demonstrate that the machine can indeed sustain itself with no addition of energy of any form.
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and even put so simply, it blows me away how hard that is to grasp for some people.
 
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