Perpetual motion machine examination rules, please.

[Ririon]

... If I'm right in my speculation then Newton's third law of motion (for every action...) is too simplistic to describe what's happening here. As a consequence of that The Law is in for a revision similar to the one it went thru after the Manhattan Project.

As always, we'll see.

Gene

Don't try to save money when it comes to the lead shielding! If you are right and I am right, your contraption will generate quite a bit of ionizing radiation.

 

[vcrepair]

Dennis Lee is back on tour promoting products like "Magnetic Laundry Balls"
that replace detergent and insulating paint, flat-proof tires, etc.

Now Dennis is promoting a Multi Level Marketing Plan to let "dealers"
or "recruiters" get rich selling products.

Dennis also claims he can make a Free Electricity Generator that produces
30 KW, but he needs to find 1,600,000 "witnesses" to see 100 simultaneous
demonstrations across the USA in stadiums. That way it can't be suppressed
by big business and government. ;-)

Dennis claims he will be demonstrating "engine that runs on soda, pickle juice,
water, etc. Dennis says they can modify car engines to get 80 MPG but
that will be demonstrated when the "witnesses" are ready.

But the red Murray lawnmower runs from the gasoline that is mixed with the
water and junk in a jar. The gasoline floats on top of the water so it runs
the lawn mower engine for a minute. Also gasoline evaporates easier than
water so the gasoline vapor from heating the mixture runs the engine.
NOTE: Dennis Lee demonstrated all of the same stuff on his 2001 tour,
but has NOT PROVEN any of it really works or marketed it successfully.

The "insulating paint" doesn't insulate that well according to
a friend I asked who knows someone that used it.

"Magnets doing work" is just a magnetic ramp that a steel ball
rolls up. BUT they grab it at the top and place it back at
the bottom. It does NOT roll up and back down by itself.

No scientist said you can't get "work" out of a permanent magnet,
it can pick up ferrous metal or magnet can lift itself,
BUT then it stays unless extra force and energy is used to
move it back to the start position. Just like an object falls
to the ground needs to be lifted back up. A permanent magnet
can not do continuous work and produce energy.


Dennis claims he has device that can "transmutate" sic [transmute]
radioactive isotopes and make them non radioactive.
If anyone has their own geiger counter and radioactive sample
it might be worth asking Dennis to PROVE IT! But I doubt that
Dennis will let anyone actually do their own testing.

The "Hummingbird motor" that Dennis claims puts out 5 times
more power than input, has NEVER been proven by experts. Dennis
"demonstrated" that on his 1999 tour, but can NOT name ONE
scientist that tested it. Dennis just says they all had a chance
and many did, but no names or universities, etc that tested it.
That "Hummingbird" motor will NOT be on this tour so there will
be no chance to test it.

Most of the extraordinary "demonstrations" are just videotape.
Dennis doesn't allow people to closely examine the devices he
demonstrates. Dennis also has a big diesel three phase generator
parked outside the conference room, that powers much of the
equipment he demonstrates.

That is used to electrolyse water to make hydrogen and oxygen
that Dennis uses to cut metal and to make a vacuum after the
hydrogen burns back into water.

Check the tour schedule to see if any shows are near you.
It can be fun to see an old fashioned "snake oil show" that
Dennis Lee puts on. He makes so many wrong statements about
how energy and power and electricity works, etc. and claims
that "big business" and government is keeping it all suppressed. ;-)

Dennis Lee has a telephone conference call on Thursdays
7:00 to 9:00 PM EST (GMT-5)
for his "recruiters". 646-519-5860 PIN 3560
website for archived shows in Real Player audio format:
soundwaves2000.com/jgs/clubs password "thisisit"

NOTE: Dennis does most of the talking for 2 hours, but
sometimes you can get a question in. BUT the telephone conference
is for his "recruiters" who believe Dennis can make "free electricity"
and that soon they will be rich. ;-)

For skeptical information about Dennis Lee URL: phact.org/e/dennis.html

From website: bwanetwork.com

NOTE: Shows without an address have NOT been actually "booked"
yet. Dennis hopes that local "dealers" in those cities will find
a cheap conference center like high school auditorium, etc.
for him to do his show at.

***********************8
BWA TOUR SCHEDULE
bwanetwork.cm



There has been a change to the schedule. The Sacramento CA show date has been changed from Feb 14th to Feb 15th in observance of Valentine's Day.

Here are the cities in the order we will be going to them with the dates we will be there. We have not yet set up the locations. Check back for updates on the locations. As soon as we have reserved them, we will post them to give you as much notice as possible. The pastor shows indicated with a (*) are private presentations to pastors for a special group. Those shows are not for the public. Some people have asked for special shows before this schedule was made, and they were granted. We will not change this schedule now. We will try to accommodate groups where it is possible for us to. This is a pretty tight schedule and we have tried to allow for weather fluctuations and to get proper rest between shows. The show starts promptly at 6:30 P.M.

New York City , New York ...............................................Monday January 16th
Newark Airport Holiday Inn 160 Frontage Rd (Take Newark Airport Shuttle or call for directions 973-589-1000)

Cleveland , Ohio ...............................................................Friday January 20th
Hilton Cleveland East/Beachwood 3663 Park East Dr. Beachwood, OH, 216-464-5950

Chicago, Illinois.........................................................................
Tuesday January 24th
Oasis Edutainment Theatre 12952 S. Western Ave. Blue Island, IL 60406 708-239-0250

Kansas City, Kansas .....................................................................Friday January 27th
Sheraton Overland Park Hotel at the Convention Center 6100 College Boulevard Overland Park, Kansas 66211 (913) 234-2100

Minneapolis, Minnesota............................................................Tuesday January 31st
Holiday Inn Burnsville 14201 NICOLLET AVE, SOUTH BURNSVILLE, MN 55337 952-435-2100

Seattle, Washington..................................................................Tuesday February 7th
The Seattle Public Library, The Microsoft Auditorium, 1000 Fourth Ave., Seattle, WA 98104-1109
Please NOTE: There will be a five dollar parking fee!

Portland, Oregon .........................................................................Friday February 10th
Benson High School , Meeting will be held in the Auditorium
546 NE 12th Ave. Portland, OR 97232-2719

Sacramento, California ..........................................................Wednesday February 15th
Radisson Hotel, 500 Leisure Lane, Sacramento CA 95815

Las Vegas, Nevada ......................................................................Friday February 17th
Community College of Southern Nevada, Performing Arts Center Cheyenne Campus
3200 East Cheyenne Ave , PIA, North Las Vegas, NV 89030-4296

San Diego, California .............................................................Tuesday February 21st

Houston, Texas .......................................................................Tuesday February 28th
Hilton Hotel - University of Houston, 4800 Calhoun Street, Houston, Texas 77204-3028

Orlando, Florida ............................................................................Tuesday March 7th

Atlanta, Georgia ..............................................................................Friday March 10th

Nashville, Tennessee .................................................................Tuesday March 14th (MLM)

Richmond, Virginia ........................................................................Friday March 17th

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania .......................................................Tuesday March 21st

At the MLM public presentations we will show the entire BWA product line and spend some time on the opportunity to make money selling it either as an independent sales rep (Preferred Customer) or as an independent Distributor for BWA. Between this product line and the various bonuses offered, we believe we have the ultimate opportunity for those who wish to do well in their own business.

Anyone wishing to experience a glimpse at a sample of things to come and our true capability and potential to change things will, at these shows, be invited to take home a copy of a special DVD called “The Better World Industrial Revolution!” As you will see, we have already done far more than you are aware of with even bigger things to come!

Better World Alternatives will publicly demonstrate our current product line.
You will learn about amazing technologies that all seem impossible, like...

An internal combustion engine that runs using nothing but water as the fuel source.
A simple modification makes all gas engines run on pickle juice, Pepsi, Coke, or any liquid at all!

A process to make it so engines run with no exhaust going out to the environment at all!

A device that can burn ordinary tap water to cut, weld, and braze metal and even replace natural gas.

A conversion kit to run existing gasoline engines on dry ordinary corn, bird seed, or McDonald’s fries.

We will show you a gas that implodes rather than explodes that can create an instant vacuum of any size.

We will demonstrate a technique to pass live electricity through the air over long distances with no wires

We will show you a way to generate electricity with no generator, motor, or mechanical device at all!

See a 174# 5,000 HP Tornado engine that runs on water designed to put the force of a tornado to work.

Discover a technology that can transmutate the nucleus of an atom to neutralize radioactive waste.

A Negawatt Circuit can return half your electricity to the electric company after lighting your lights.

Witness water flowing uphill without even using a pump or any mechanical device at all.

Make air hot or cold by just using compressed air and without using any refrigerants at all.

See a Vibrationless jackhammer that doesn’t make ear drum splitting noise but does the job just the same.

An Ocean Buoy can make 2.5 million gallons of fresh water from the ocean a year with free ocean energy!

Easy to paint on insulation for walls and ceilings that looks like (and is) paint that can be made in any color.

Discover the World’s most efficient permanent magnet motor ever publicly demonstrated (proven 5 to 1.)

Discover the world’s most efficient generator ever publicly demonstrated (proven to be 100% efficient.)

Watch magnets do work... reflect and block a magnetic field... all claimed by scientists to be impossible!

You, and your guests will be amazed. Plan on spending some time. We will also discuss our Direct Sales Distribution plan and how you could get involved in helping us revolutionize America. You do not want to miss whichever show you can make!

 

[Hitch]

A while ago I thought that with as many different meanings that words have it's a wonder we don't misunderstand each other more often. There are 11(base two) types of people in the world.

1. Those that want to know what's going on
2. Those that want to create confusion
3. And finally those that want to create confusion so they can tell everyone else what's going on.

I'm not going to talk about that later group because you know who you are.

It's been maybe two years since I decided to violate The Law. It has been discouraging at times. It might have been 6 months ago when the ideas of precisely how such a thing could be accomplished began to form for me. Yet even with those ideas I still couldn't figure out how in the world I could model them. The mechanisms that I've talked about in this thread almost came close to incorporating the ideas I imagined yet not quite. Last night as I was putting my insane notions aside to get some sleep I had an other idea. I thought if I could combine two of these mechanisms would that be a solution? To my total amazement while trying to accomplish something different I noticed the precise thing I've been looking for.

I might be premature (not having modeled the mechanism to test it) yet I think it has remarkable promise. If I'm right in my speculation then Newton's third law of motion (for every action...) is too simplistic to describe what's happening here. As a consequence of that The Law is in for a revision similar to the one it went thru after the Manhattan Project.

As always, we'll see.

Gene

I suspect as your model gets closer to completion, you'll discover some previously unconsidered factors. I wish you luck and offer a bit of free advice.* You're only slowing yourself down by posting here. Come back and wow us when you have it finished.

* I guarrantee it's worth what you paid for it.

 

[AgingYoung]

Ririon,

I'll let you know before I fire it up. That way you'll have the advanced warning you need to replace your aluminum foil hat (to keep the aliens from reading your thoughts about it.) You can never be too careful about these things.

Gene

ps: Hitch, I think I overpaid for that advice.

edit: Negawatt Circuit?!!? That crook stole my idea!

 

[Ririon]

Ririon,

I'll let you know before I fire it up. That way you'll have the advanced warning you need to replace your aluminum foil hat (to keep the aliens from reading your thoughts about it.) You can never be too careful about these things.

Gene

ps: Hitch, I think I overpaid for that advice.

Ah. I see. I was wondering why I couldn't read your thoughts about it. The old aluminum foil hat trick... But (taking you) seriously: If you want to convert mass into energy, you really should worry about radiation! (Your Manhattan project reference.) And you probably need some kind of government license...

 

[69dodge]

It's been maybe two years since I decided to violate The Law. It has been discouraging at times. It might have been 6 months ago when the ideas of precisely how such a thing could be accomplished began to form for me. Yet even with those ideas I still couldn't figure out how in the world I could model them. The mechanisms that I've talked about in this thread almost came close to incorporating the ideas I imagined yet not quite. Last night as I was putting my insane notions aside to get some sleep I had an other idea. I thought if I could combine two of these mechanisms would that be a solution? To my total amazement while trying to accomplish something different I noticed the precise thing I've been looking for.

I might be premature (not having modeled the mechanism to test it) yet I think it has remarkable promise. If I'm right in my speculation then Newton's third law of motion (for every action...) is too simplistic to describe what's happening here. As a consequence of that The Law is in for a revision similar to the one it went thru after the Manhattan Project.

As always, we'll see.

Gene

I do not understand.

What makes you think that Newton's third law is wrong? Not experiment, I guess, because you haven't yet built anything that does what you want it to. So, some sort of theory, then. But what theory? And why do think it's a correct theory, in the absence of experimental verification?

So far in this thread you've just talked about torques and lever arms and such, all of which are concepts that are based on the same Newton's laws that you're trying to overturn. How can that approach possibly work? If you start off by assuming Newton's laws, you can't end up disproving them, unless you make a mistake somewhere in your reasoning.

 

[ernon]

xx

 

[AgingYoung]

69dodge,

What makes you think that Newton's third law is wrong? Not experiment, I guess, because you haven't yet built anything that does what you want it to. So, some sort of theory, then. But what theory? And why do think it's a correct theory, in the absence of experimental verification?

I've modeled parts or mechanisms that are pieces of the actual wheel that I want to build and have experimented with them. Several ideas or theories are the theme that I'm trying to model. These same ideas could and will be concisely stated, as distilled and simply put as Newton's third law or the Pythagoras theorem. I'm not going to do that at this time. It would be premature.

When ever I think I should equivocate I'm right there. Heck, I could be wrong. Although I've put a slight twist in this current build of a mechanism I see something that's beyond promising. Also from what I'm seeing there's not much in the way of power in a gravity wheel.


Hitch,

You're only slowing yourself down by posting here. Come back and wow us when you have it finished.

Keep some popcorn on hand.


Ernon,

xx

ooo, three in a row.

Gene

 

[Ririon]

When ever I think I should equivocate I'm right there.

Just increased my vocabulary there. Might come in handy in this forum.

Also from what I'm seeing there's not much in the way of power in a gravity wheel.

Finally, I think we can all agree on something.

 

[scribble]

OK from www.dictionary.com
To my (English) mind, when you also described the motion as "travel", there was the implication of a journey - ongoing motion. Also from dictionary.com:See what I mean? There is a definate sence of continued motion in most of these uses.

However, I am assured by other Yanks that the word "travel" is synonymous with "move" for informal speach. For the sake of peace, I am prepared to accept that we are being divided by a common language here However, consider the following:

I got in my car, headed out onto the highway, and traveled at 50kmph.

First off, I'd like to say this whole thread is fun and you are both very bright guys.

Now (rather than then, to avoid confusion about when I mean), I'd like to add that as a native English speaker, I had absolutely no trouble understanding that what was meant by IXP was the velocity at that moment in time, and not at that moment in time and all moments thereafter.

I'd also like to add that he said "traveling" and not "travel" and there's a reason they call it a present participle, but I shall refrain as I am not an English teacher. I just use the language, and I don't have to know very much about it to accomplish that.

 

[stupidquestion]

Some points specific and general:

There seems to be no dispute that the experiment(s) being discussed here involve moving parts that create friction. Friction is a loss of energy through waste heat. That loss of energy means the system is not perfectly efficient. That means perpetual motion is impossible. *Unless,* as appears to be claimed here, energy is going to be created somewhere else, under some new physics principle, apparently involving gravity. I am not discouraging tinkering with such a theory, but I will point out that friction is one of the main obstacles to perpetual motion. I would also suggest that some professional education in calculating machine-system forces might be in order, because many previous perpetual motion claims have turned out to be rooted in system force calculations.

A general point I haven't seen mentioned here, just for the benefit of the overall discussion, is that the laws of thermodynamics don't just happen to come up in these situations. They were actually established in large part by the failure of perpetual motion experiments. The laws of thermodynamics are not an abstract bar to perpetual motion as an idea; they are a description of its factual failure.

But anyway, have fun.

 

[NiallM]

That Dennis chap is quite the inventor!

I notice that he wasnts to display his over-unity machines in mass demonstratins simultaneously.

I notice, also, that he claims to have a method to wirelessly trasmit electricity.

Therefore he claim to have invented the impossible free energy device, along with a claim that to have invented a method that could let him cheat on such a demonstration. Wow! He's got all bases covered!

 

[Gr8wight]

I wanted to post in this thread to unveil a great quotation I found and decided to use as my signature.

The bit I have used below was preceded by this (which I found apropos to this discussion):

"...no matter how much weight is attached to the wheel, which weight will cause its movement, doubtlessly the center of such a weight will stop at the center of its pole; and no instument that human genius can invent which turns on its axis will be able to avoid such an effect."

 

[stupidquestion]

And Leo knew what he was talking about--he made some stabs at perpetual motion himself, of course.

 

[Gr8wight]

And Leo knew what he was talking about--he made some stabs at perpetual motion himself, of course.

Yes. I found the quote in a book about him under an illustration of one of his proposed perpetual motion machines. The man was brilliant. Considering that he never actually built most of the things he designed, he was able to tell just from his own drawings what the limitations of his devices were.

 

[steve s]

Really? It doesn't take any energy to overcome the friction of the bearing? I suppose some form of magnetic bearing might solve that, actually.

Magnetic bearings aren't frictionless. They just greatly reduce the amount of friction.

A company called SKF manufactures these. On their FAQ page you'll find...

"Are magnetic bearings friction free?

Not quite. As the shaft rotates it experiences alternating polarity magnetic fields from the stator poles. Changing magnetic fields result in eddy currents and present drag to the shaft. The amount of drag varies with bearing size, shaft speed and other complex design variables."

I haven't read every post in this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating someone else's comments.

Steve S.

 

[AgingYoung]

Gr8wight,
I like your da Vinci quote but my personal favorite is, 'the sun doesn't move.'


Stupidquestion,

A general point I haven't seen mentioned here, just for the benefit of the overall discussion, is that the laws of thermodynamics don't just happen to come up in these situations. They were actually established in large part by the failure of perpetual motion experiments. The laws of thermodynamics are not an abstract bar to perpetual motion as an idea; they are a description of its factual failure.

It seems you know how Hermann Helmholtz went full circle by restating his premise in his conclusion thereby figuring out that energy is conserved.

No-one had ever succeeded, he wrote, in building a perpetual motion machine that worked. Therefore, such machines must be impossible. If they are impossible it must be by reason of some natural law preventing their construction. This law, he said, could only be the law of Conservation of Energy.

I don't consider the law of conservation of matter and energy to be a description of the practical failure of perpetual motion. I consider it a faulty conclusion. If I tried to hit the sun with a probe and I thought that the sun didn't move it would be an accident if I actually hit where I was aiming. Likewise if I believed that since no one managed to do a certain thing it must be impossible I would never attempt to consider the matter in much detail.

There is another idea in Hermann's circular reasoning. To think that since you can't figure something out that it's impossible is a little arrogant.

Gene

 

[DRBUZZ0]

I have designed a perpetual motion machine...

I would really like to submit it to the challange. It's a very simple device. There is a small electric motor which is connected to the self-contained power source, which is in a sealed container. It requires no external energy at all. You can put it anywhere and it will continue to run. If you stop the motor by grabbing the shaft, it will start right back up as soon as you let go.

So just tell me how long you need to observe it for in order to agree that it is a perpetual motion device and we can get this thing started!

Er...just a couple things...

If you find that the motor is slowing down in um...well....say it's running half as fast in something like 28.28 years. I don't think I should have to give the money back, becaue I said that it would keep running...not at the same speed. So...you should wait for it to stop running completely.

Also...the power source. It has radiators on it. So, you have to give it good air circulation and stuff. Do not let it overheat. These supernatural devices need cooling. If you let it overheat....you will be sorry.

NEVER EVER EVER open the power source. This is not just to keep it seceret. I promise you...YOU DO NOT WANT TO OPEN IT.

If it does get opened, please follow the following steps.

1. Avoid breathing any dust
2. Evacuate the area imediatly
3. Remove any clothing...which may be contaminated with the magic inside.
4. Take a shower and use an abrasive scrub to clean your whole body, especially your hair.
5. Drink lots of water and take calcium supliments
6. Call the emergency incident line of the Nuclear Reglatory Committed or contact your nearest government emergency managment agency.



Please remember that the magic pixie dust inside the magic machie is very powerful...so you need to be careful.


Now....if you'll excuse me, I have to go pick up my magic perpetual motion machine from my underpaid Russian scientist buddy.

-Steve

 

[AgingYoung]

Steve,

I can tell you've given the matter a lot of thought. You don't have a common ancestory to the lawyers that argued the scopes trial do you? I recognize the style.

Gene

 

[Aepervius]

Nice

I have designed a perpetual motion machine...

I would really like to submit it to the challange. It's a very simple device. There is a small electric motor which is connected to the self-contained power source, which is in a sealed container. It requires no external energy at all. You can put it anywhere and it will continue to run. If you stop the motor by grabbing the shaft, it will start right back up as soon as you let go.

So just tell me how long you need to observe it for in order to agree that it is a perpetual motion device and we can get this thing started!

Er...just a couple things...

If you find that the motor is slowing down in um...well....say it's running half as fast in something like 28.28 years. I don't think I should have to give the money back, becaue I said that it would keep running...not at the same speed. So...you should wait for it to stop running completely.

Also...the power source. It has radiators on it. So, you have to give it good air circulation and stuff. Do not let it overheat. These supernatural devices need cooling. If you let it overheat....you will be sorry.

NEVER EVER EVER open the power source. This is not just to keep it seceret. I promise you...YOU DO NOT WANT TO OPEN IT.

If it does get opened, please follow the following steps.

1. Avoid breathing any dust
2. Evacuate the area imediatly
3. Remove any clothing...which may be contaminated with the magic inside.
4. Take a shower and use an abrasive scrub to clean your whole body, especially your hair.
5. Drink lots of water and take calcium supliments
6. Call the emergency incident line of the Nuclear Reglatory Committed or contact your nearest government emergency managment agency.



Please remember that the magic pixie dust inside the magic machie is very powerful...so you need to be careful.


Now....if you'll excuse me, I have to go pick up my magic perpetual motion machine from my underpaid Russian scientist buddy.

-Steve

Actually if I remmember correctly you should in such case recommend Iode Suplement , to saturate the thyroid with "unmagical unpixied" iode . I could be wrong, though.