Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

[ahhell]

pinochet

From Dictatorship to Democracy: Chile’s Outdated Constitution

On September 11, 1980, General Augusto Pinochet, head of the authoritarian military junta that staged a coup d’état in Chile, arranged a national plebiscite to ratify a new constitution. The referendum, approved by 67 percent of the population, served to solidify Pinochet’s position as President...

hir.harvard.edu

Is it small government though? He believed in market economics but that's not small government in any other respect.

I am relatively certain that Sackets compare and contrast Trump to Mussolini would show they have a lot in common. Still, unfair comparison, Mussolini was a lot smarter and better educated than trump.

 

[dirtywick]

Is it small government though? He believed in market economics but that's not small government in any other respect.

I am relatively certain that Sackets compare and contrast Trump to Mussolini would show they have a lot in common. Still, unfair comparison, Mussolini was a lot smarter and better educated than trump.

it's making the government smaller. dismantling and privatizing the welfare state is pretty much what's being referenced when saying maga is shrinking the government while ignoring that they're expanding things like executive powers, the military, and immigration.

i'm quite sure if you compared the trump admin to any fascist government you'd find a lot in common. that's the basis of why i think it's fair to call them fascist. we seem to not be able to move on from saying they're small government, which is at best marginally related

 

[jimbob]

we seem to not be able to move on from
a dubious claim saying they're small government, which is at best marginally related

Addition

 

[ahhell]

To be clear, I don't think it is unfair anymore (it used to be) I just think it is absolutely pointless and counterproductive to call it fascist. The reason being, the left has been calling everything they don't like fascist since the decided fascism was bad. To be fair, the right has and continues to do that with commie, red, pinko, socialist, marxist etc, which is just as pointless and counterproductive.

By counterproductive, I mean if you want to stop Trump from enacting his agenda (tough because it changes moment to moment) calling him a fascist will make that harder. Why, because almost nobody believes the accusation anymore.

 

[sackett]

Is it small government though? He believed in market economics but that's not small government in any other respect.

I am relatively certain that Sackets compare and contrast Trump to Mussolini would show they have a lot in common. Still, unfair comparison, Mussolini was a lot smarter and better educated than trump.

A lot? Well, maybe, since our baseline is moronism. But as always when comparing
two intellects, there are qualitative differences. For instance, Donnie can read a map,
as he demonstrated with his sharpie. Benny da Moose couldn't make head nor tail of
maps, even big ones.

OTH, the author i recommended above, R. J. B. Bosworth, was the first* to describe Musso's sexual performance
as "nasty, brutish, and short." How would that compare, contrast, or match up with Trumpf's? The world
wonders.

* Okay, the first in print.

 

[dirtywick]

To be clear, I don't think it is unfair anymore (it used to be) I just think it is absolutely pointless and counterproductive to call it fascist. The reason being, the left has been calling everything they don't like fascist since the decided fascism was bad. To be fair, the right has and continues to do that with commie, red, pinko, socialist, marxist etc, which is just as pointless and counterproductive.

By counterproductive, I mean if you want to stop Trump from enacting his agenda (tough because it changes moment to moment) calling him a fascist will make that harder. Why, because almost nobody believes the accusation anymore.

ok thanks for clarifying, but you gave it a 10 in unfairness when i asked so obviously it's a little confusing.

i think a case could be made that the moderates and centrists were a little too dismissive about the left's warnings of the rise of fascism on the right, considering how things turned out and all. as in, if it was me personally who spent a lot of time saying the left is just being ridiculous calling everything they don't like fascism, and the real dangers are woke and dei, and it turned out wow there actually was a bunch of fascists in charge and i completely got the situation wrong, that should probably warrant a little self reflection.

 

[ahhell]

Probably an issue with reading comprehension on my part. I thought I was giving the current administration close to 10 on a fascism scale, I did not think I was giving it close to 10 on it being unfair to say so.

I don't think I need anymore self relfection on that subject. The first Trump administration wasn't full of fascists, Romney wasn't a fascist, neither Bush was, Reagan wasn't etc. A broken clock getting the time right once doesn't make it a good clock.

 

[dirtywick]

Probably an issue with reading comprehension on my part. I thought I was giving the current administration close to 10 on a fascism scale, I did not think I was giving it close to 10 on it being unfair to say so.

oh i see. i agree that calling the trump admin fascist is accurate as well.

I don't think I need anymore self relfection on that subject. The first Trump administration wasn't full of fascists, Romney wasn't a fascist, neither Bush was, Reagan wasn't etc. A broken clock getting the time right once doesn't make it a good clock.

alright. personally i think in retrospect there was a bunch of red flags going back decades. even more recently, people like steven miller and bannon were heavily involved in trump's first administration. that's the kind of dismissiveness that i think is a problem

 

[TragicMonkey]

Mussolini was a lot smarter and better educated than trump.

And more handsome.

 

[jimbob]

And more handsome.

Especially when he was gracing the Piazzale Loreto with his presence

 

[plague311]

I don't think I need anymore self relfection on that subject. The first Trump administration wasn't full of fascists, Romney wasn't a fascist, neither Bush was, Reagan wasn't etc. A broken clock getting the time right once doesn't make it a good clock.

But they were in comparison to anything we had previous up to that point, right? It's been slowly moving that way and those people you named helped pave the way through their leadership. The center just keeps moving further and further to the right, and it's not a slow crawl. Over the last 15 years it has ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ sprinted to the right.

Trump didn't just jump out of nowhere and be popular. He said things that appealed to the right, and the Republicans overwhelmingly approve of how Trump is acting. They're literally touching him while they pray and talk about how majestic he is.

It's not that the broken clock found the right time once, it's stuck on the time and screaming.

 

[Darat]

But they were in comparison to anything we had previous up to that point, right? It's been slowly moving that way and those people you named helped pave the way through their leadership. The center just keeps moving further and further to the right, and it's not a slow crawl. Over the last 15 years it has ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ sprinted to the right.

Trump didn't just jump out of nowhere and be popular. He said things that appealed to the right, and the Republicans overwhelmingly approve of how Trump is acting. They're literally touching him while they pray and talk about how majestic he is.

It's not that the broken clock found the right time once, it's stuck on the time and screaming.

It must be hard work for committed "centralists" having to constantly update their political positions and opinions based on where the centre happens to lie at any given time.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Have you seen how much the budget for ICE has grown since the Big Beautiful Bill

A branch of government that doesn't even deal with citizens.

Actually, it's a branch of government that's been known to shoot citizens.

To be fair, Alex Pretti was shot by CBP agents Jesus Ochoa and Raymundo Gutierrez.

And Marimar Martinez was shot five times by CBP agent Charles Exum.

But Renée Good was shot by ICE agent Jonathan Ross.

The so-called Big Beautiful Bill allocated $75 billion to ICE and $65 billion to CBP. That was new money, added above and beyond their baseline budget. There are only three countries in the world (US, China, Russia) whose annual military budgets are greater than that bill's supplemental allocation to ICE and CBP.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not when you see the cesspit of far right and conspiracy theory social media, which is where Kirk flourished, "Nuremberg 2" and "Nuremberg trials" is used to call for lynching, especially of doctors and others who developed the COVID vaccines. I have also seen it used to call for people developing 5G phone networks.


And remember that these doctors have done nothing wrong. At worst you might disagree with their medical judgement.


The Nazis actually worked to harm people. It's a bit different from advocating that doctors trying to do the best for their patients should be tried.

All of your rationalizations are irrelevant. No matter how you look at it, your approach frames the Nuremberg trials as wrong, and the nazis being tried and punished as victims.

You can disagree with Kirk’s views, absolutely. But this constant need to exaggerate everything to the Poe-est possible Poe-ism is absurd. It results in people like you resorting to casting fair trials as violence and the very worst criminals as victims of injustice.

Just argue against Kirk’s ideas and positions. If they’re so bad, it should be really easy to defeat them with basic reasoning and common sense, without needing to devolve to name-calling and verbal bullying to win people over to your viewpoint.

 

[Emily's Cat]

is that your best argument that maga isn't a fascist movement?

The best argument against maga being a fascist movement is that it simply isn’t fascist. Conservative, heavily influenced by Christianity, and strongly anti-socialist and anti-communist… absolutely. Plenty of things for a liberal to oppose, but this persistent hyperbolic framing without good basis is nothing more than that shallow emotional manipulation, linguistic coercion, and an attempt to shame and bully others into conforming to your belief system out of fear of a modern-day secular inquisition.

Why you guys feel the need to do so here, where the vast majority already agree with you and don’t need to be harassed into compliance, is beyond me.

 

[Emily's Cat]

on a scale of 1 to 10, in your opinion how unfair is it to make a serious comparison between maga and fascism?

If 1 is conspiracy theory blather and 10 is spot on perfect, I’d give it a 3. It’s almost entirely propaganda.

 

[Emily's Cat]

if you had to choose a label for maga, which would you choose

Traditionalist Republic.

Perhaps “pendulum correction”. Things got pushed - and I do mean pushed - too far, now it’s swinging back. It will swing past equilibrium, and we’ll have some rough back and forth before it settles down.

Unless you guys manage to enact the glorious and violent revolution where you line up thought criminals to execute before turning it all into an oppressive party-controlled tyranny that destroys liberty and freedom in the name of the “greater good” that never benefits more than a scant few grifting political elites.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Except that the underlying philosophy is very similar.

Ethnically and religiously based ultra nationalism.

Which totally explains the not insignificant numbers of black, Hispanic, Indian, etc. supporters who value the American dream, right?

The leader is above the law - in fact the law just prevents sufficiently quick action. And, as long as they support the leader, rules are to benefit the richest and most powerful members of the country.

That describes both parties, who enrich themselves on the backs of the people, and somehow all seem to turn their $174K salaries into multi-millions in the course of a couple of years.

We've seen the models in America before. Admittedly in Latin America rather than the US.

???

 

[Emily's Cat]

Give me an example of a small government dictatorship. Where has it ever been done?

Didn’t you know? It was done in that one country where communism was totally effective and made everyone’s lives better!

 

[Emily's Cat]

the lines between right wing authoritarian populist and fascist are pretty blurry.

The line between alt-right and ctrl-left are much blurrier.