Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

[jimbob]

Trump is massively expanding the government - you do know that, right?

Case in point.

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www.npr.org

Check out the graph in this

 

[Emily's Cat]

Charlie Kirk

Charlie Kirk: "We need to have a Nuremberg-style trial for every gender-affirming clinic doctor"

www.mediamatters.org

And as I said before, enough conspiracy theorists in the muddy waters where Kirk swam used the term "Nuremberg trials" with pictures of the hangings or gibbets to know that it was more than "just" false imprisonment he was advocating.

It’s quite a leap to go from saying we need international trials to determine crimes against humanity all the way to advocating murder.

Do you realize that the implication of your position here is that actual ww2 nazis who committed massive atrocities were the victims of the trials? And that the execution of those leaders who ordered and perpetrated some of the most appalling crimes witnessed in the modern era were murdered?

 

[jimbob]

It’s quite a leap to go from saying we need international trials to determine crimes against humanity all the way to advocating murder.

Not when you see the cesspit of far right and conspiracy theory social media, which is where Kirk flourished, "Nuremberg 2" and "Nuremberg trials" is used to call for lynching, especially of doctors and others who developed the COVID vaccines. I have also seen it used to call for people developing 5G phone networks.


And remember that these doctors have done nothing wrong. At worst you might disagree with their medical judgement.

Do you realize that the implication of your position here is that actual ww2 nazis who committed massive atrocities were the victims of the trials? And that the execution of those leaders who ordered and perpetrated some of the most appalling crimes witnessed in the modern era were murdered?

The Nazis actually worked to harm people. It's a bit different from advocating that doctors trying to do the best for their patients should be tried.

 

[jimbob]

What's that got to do with anything. YOU certainly don't approve of communism and you were insinuating that a poster was a communist for supporting the idea of a welfare safety net. You might claim that wasn't what you meant, but in that case, you need to improve your communication.

Charlie Kirk advocated ideological violence against doctors. He used racist tropes with the flimsiest of figleaves. He was a hypocrite who supported the right to violent speech for those he supported and the repression of free speech for those he opposed (again with the flimsiest of figleaves to say that they weren't the same). He pushed conspiracy theories that have lead to violence. He didn't like the idea of empathy.
He spread homophobic ideas (as in they "want to corrupt your children"). He pushed for violence against "pervert" transgender people (again it's an implausible figleaf of deniability to say that they should be "taken care of the way we used to take care of things in the 1950s and '60s" is not a call for violence).

Yes he was very careful to avoid explicit calls for violence but he was constantly making implicit insinuations where the obvious conclusion was for violence.

And as he liked jokes about far more innocent victims of violence, it's a bit rich and hypocritical to claim offence at his becoming a meme. Especially given how Erika Kirk has tried to milk the situation.

So. No, I'm not celebrating his death, but it wasn't a tragedy.

 

[Ziggurat]

What's that got to do with anything.

It's got everything to do with what actually encourages violence and what does not. It's not the people accused of communism who are facing assassination attempts, it's the people accused of fascism. Again, actual violence against people on the right doesn't bother you. It really should.

 

[theprestige]

So. No, I'm not celebrating his death, but it wasn't a tragedy.

I'm not celebrating George Floyd's death, but it wasn't a tragedy. I'm not celebrating Joseph Rosenbaum's death, but it wasn't a tragedy. I'm not celebrating Rachel Corrie's death, but it wasn't a tragedy.

/s

 

[Ziggurat]

But were you someone I knew personally or even family and you'd espouse Kirk's beliefs that a christian theocracy needs to be installed that excludes women, people of color, anyone not straight and not of the right political background?

Kirk did not believe any of this.

But lying about him sure makes it easier to encourage and excuse violence against him.

 

[a_unique_person]

A horrible person was killed by gin violence - something he had worked to preserve.

He had demonstrated a complete lack of empathy for the victims of school shootings. In fact he despised the concept of empathy, saying it was a made up term.

He had joked about life changing violence and supported the hammer attack on the spouse of a politician he disagreed with.

Of course people are going to point this out, and honour his edgelord persona by joking about the irony of his being killed by the very thing he loved.


I can only assume it's what he would have wanted.

What is an assault rifle?

 

[dirtywick]

To be fair, its hard to do any about any of that will a small government apparatus with limited authority.

it would be misinformed to think trump and the maga movement have been trying to limit government authority, if that's what he meant by shrinking the government. i could take a few guesses as to what he is referring to, but i don't really care since it's got nothing to do with the defining features of fascism.

 

[dirtywick]

Shows how useless Wikipedia can be.

Fascists never shrink government. Nobody actually interested in using the state to oppress people ever does. The reasons should be obvious.

if you have a better source for a definition i'd read it. i don't think anything the trump admin has done has limited the government's ability to oppress people in any way.

anyway, is that your best argument that maga isn't a fascist movement?

 

[jimbob]

it would be misinformed to think trump and the maga movement have been trying to limit government authority, if that's what he meant by shrinking the government. i could take a few guesses as to what he is referring to, but i don't really care since it's got nothing to do with the defining features of fascism.

Yup. Check out ICE funding after the Big Beautiful Bill

Case in point.

Loading…

www.npr.org

Check out the graph in this

 

[Ziggurat]

if you have a better source for a definition i'd read it.

History. Try history.

anyway, is that your best argument that maga isn't a fascist movement?

That their actual goals and methods don't really resemble fascism in critically important ways. Such as the scope of government: fascists seek to expand that, to every aspect of life. Trump doesn't. I could go on, but this isn't the topic of the thread.

 

[dirtywick]

History. Try history.

my thoughts are that if you had a source you'd have provided it by now.

That their actual goals and methods don't really resemble fascism in critically important ways. Such as the scope of government: fascists seek to expand that, to every aspect of life. Trump doesn't. I could go on, but this isn't the topic of the thread.

if that's all you have to say about it, then ok. not a very good case.

 

[ahhell]

I like Umberto Eco's 14 characteristics of fascism

1"The cult of tradition,"
2"The rejection of modernism,"
3"The cult of action for action's sake,"
4"Disagreement is treason"
5"Fear of difference,"
6"Appeal to a frustrated middle class,"
7"Obsession with a plot"
8 "at the same time too strong and too weak."
9"Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare"
10 "Contempt for the weak,"
11"Everybody is educated to become a hero,"
12"Machismo,"
13"Selective populism"
14"Newspeak"

Trump maybe doesn't fulfil 9 and 11.

But he is happy with avowed neo Nazis and Klansmen supporting him in, say Charlottesville.

The only thing I object to there is that most of that is not exclusive to fascism. Possibly the cult of tradition distinguishes it from Marxism but other wise, not much.
2. Rejection of modernism, yes but veiled with scientism.
3. Cult of action, totally, just called revolution.
4. Samsies, maybe called class treason I suppose.
5?
6. Appeal to the frustrated, no, middle class is right, middle class who think they should be the elites.
7. Marxist, absolutely.
8?
9. Same for both.
10. No different than 9.
11. Not sure what that means to be honest, but, hero of the proletiariat?
12. Ok, not marx but definitlely Stalin and Castro.
13. Same.
14. The Marxists did it better.

Which is the problem with calling Fascist! and to a lesser extent Commie. The are largely meaningless terms that are mostly interchangeable. The mostly just mean, bad things I don't like. Commies at least have some things the agree on. Aside from Il Duce, the fascist don't really.

 

[ahhell]

So. No, I'm not celebrating his death, but it wasn't a tragedy.

It was a tragedy for his wife and kids.

 

[dirtywick]

Which is the problem with calling Fascist! and to a lesser extent Commie. The are largely meaningless terms that are mostly interchangeable. The mostly just mean, bad things I don't like. Commies at least have some things the agree on. Aside from Il Duce, the fascist don't really.

on a scale of 1 to 10, in your opinion how unfair is it to make a serious comparison between maga and fascism?

 

[jimbob]

It was a tragedy for his wife and kids.

Well, for him and his kids

 

[jimbob]

What is an assault rifle?

Qué?

 

[a_unique_person]

Qué?

Whenever he was logically cornered he would change the topic to something like "What is a woman?"

 

[ahhell]

on a scale of 1 to 10, in your opinion how unfair is it to make a serious comparison between maga and fascism?

I think its gotten a lot closer to 10, I still don't think it helps more than it hurts or elucidates more than it obscures. There are bad things other than fascism. It was Orwell who first made that observation in 1944, it hasn't gotten more useful since then.