Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

[ahhell]

it would be misinformed to think trump and the maga movement have been trying to limit government authority, if that's what he meant by shrinking the government. i could take a few guesses as to what he is referring to, but i don't really care since it's got nothing to do with the defining features of fascism.

It does according to Il Duce. All within the state, nothing outside of the state, that's kind of the opposite of small government.

 

[dirtywick]

I think its gotten a lot closer to 10, I still don't think it helps more than it hurts or elucidates more than it obscures. There are bad things other than fascism. It was Orwell who first made that observation in 1944, it hasn't gotten more useful since then.

if you had to choose a label for maga, which would you choose

It does according to Il Duce. All within the state, nothing outside of the state, that's kind of the opposite of small government.

i looked through several dozen trying to find a definition, and i asked ziggarut failed to provide a definition that includes government size as a defining feature of fascism. perhaps you’ll have more luck

 

[Ziggurat]

here's a wikipedia page with 47 different definitions of fascism. i'll confess i didn't read them all thoroughly, however i can't find a single reference to the size of the government.

How many of those definitions contain "dictatorial control" or something similar?

Do you know how you actually exert dictatorial control? Through a large government. A small government cannot accomplish that. You don't need to explicitly define "large government" as part of fascism for it to still be required. There are no small government dictatorships.

 

[jimbob]

I think its gotten a lot closer to 10, I still don't think it helps more than it hurts or elucidates more than it obscures. There are bad things other than fascism. It was Orwell who first made that observation in 1944, it hasn't gotten more useful since then.

Except that the underlying philosophy is very similar.

Ethnically and religiously based ultra nationalism.
The leader is above the law - in fact the law just prevents sufficiently quick action. And, as long as they support the leader, rules are to benefit the richest and most powerful members of the country.

We've seen the models in America before. Admittedly in Latin America rather than the US.

 

[dirtywick]

How many of those definitions contain "dictatorial control" or something similar?

Do you know how you actually exert dictatorial control? Through a large government. A small government cannot accomplish that. You don't need to explicitly define "large government" as part of fascism for it to still be required. There are no small government dictatorships.

i don't think so. you exert dictatorial control through the military or law enforcement and greater control over the economy, things that the trump admin has been expansive on. they've been shrinking things like foreign aid programs, health and social service programs, oversight bodies and regulators, park maintenance, education, museums, libraries, etc. so in that regard you can absolutely have a small government dictatorship.

 

[jimbob]

How many of those definitions contain "dictatorial control" or something similar?

Do you know how you actually exert dictatorial control? Through a large government. A small government cannot accomplish that. You don't need to explicitly define "large government" as part of fascism for it to still be required. There are no small government dictatorships.

Have you seen how much the budget for ICE has grown since the Big Beautiful Bill

 

[ahhell]

Except that the underlying philosophy is very similar.

Ethnically and religiously based ultra nationalism.
The leader is above the law - in fact the law just prevents sufficiently quick action. And, as long as they support the leader, rules are to benefit the richest and most powerful members of the country.

We've seen the models in America before. Admittedly in Latin America rather than the US.

All true and all useless. Doesn't help convince anyone who didn't think he was a fascist 12 years ago.

 

[ahhell]

if you had to choose a label for maga, which would you choose



i looked through several dozen trying to find a definition, and i asked ziggarut failed to provide a definition that includes government size as a defining feature of fascism. perhaps you’ll have more luck

As I said, according to the founder of fascism, all within the state, nothing outside the state, that is quite the opposite of small government.

ETA: I don't have label a thing to know it's bad. But, authoritarian populism, personalist, are both better than fascist. Mostly because they don't come with nearly a century of just being an ad hominem label.

ETAmore. I mean, Trump has a more in common with Chavez than he does with Pinochet, Salzar, or Franco in my opinion. My argument is mostly that fascism is a useless term that mostly means someone to the right of me that I don't like, which will cause more folks to stop listening than it will do anything to help.

 

[Ziggurat]

i don't think so.

Give me an example of a small government dictatorship. Where has it ever been done?

 

[Ziggurat]

Have you seen how much the budget for ICE has grown since the Big Beautiful Bill

A branch of government that doesn't even deal with citizens. Expanding that branch is how you think Trump is going to exert dictatorial control over the population? You're really stretching.

 

[ahhell]

A branch of government that doesn't even deal with citizens. Expanding that branch is how you think Trump is going to exert dictatorial control over the population? You're really stretching.

Come on now, expanding the police apparatus, does it really matter that they intended to go after non-citizens? Especially when we know they aren't that careful about who is and isn't allowed to be here?

 

[dirtywick]

As I said, according to the founder of fascism, all within the state, nothing outside the state, that is quite the opposite of small government.

ok, i don't think the kind of government shrinking being referred to with the trump admin has any bearing on the meaning behind the statement. however, if you find that to be disqualifying to where it's completely unfair to even make a comparison at all, to each their own. i don't agree.

ETA: I don't have label a thing to know it's bad. But, authoritarian populism, personalist, are both better than fascist. Mostly because they don't come with nearly a century of just being an ad hominem label.

some labels are good. the lines between right wing authoritarian populist and fascist are pretty blurry.

i do think fascists are a real thing tho

 

[ahhell]

I will still argue full throated that Trump himself is not a fascist, mostly because he's not smart enough or educated enough to be a fascist. He absolutely has fascists in his government though.

 

[Ziggurat]

Come on now, expanding the police apparatus, does it really matter that they intended to go after non-citizens?

Yes.

 

[ahhell]

ok, i don't think the kind of government shrinking being referred to with the trump admin has any bearing on the meaning behind the statement. however, if you find that to be disqualifying to where it's completely unfair to even make a comparison at all, to each their own. i don't agree.



some labels are good. the lines between right wing authoritarian populist and fascist are pretty blurry.

i do think fascists are a real thing tho

I think it was, not unfair but of base to make the comparison between Trump 1.0 and fascism. I don't think it is either now. It is still pointless, useless, and counter-productive because fascism hasn't meant anything other than bad since shortly before the end of WWII.

Also, the line between right wing populist and left-wing populist is no more clear than fascist and right-wing populists either.

 

[dirtywick]

I will still argue full throated that Trump himself is not a fascist, mostly because he's not smart enough or educated enough to be a fascist. He absolutely has fascists in his government though.

i agree about the fascists in his government, one of them is his chief of staff.

however, i do think that trump hiring a bunch of fascists to do fascist things to enact his agenda is enough to make his administration a fascist one. and as it relates to charlie kirk, he was a propagandist for the fascist admin, not a mouthpiece for trump's inner thoughts.

 

[dirtywick]

I think it was, not unfair but of base to make the comparison between Trump 1.0 and fascism. I don't think it is either now. It is still pointless, useless, and counter-productive because fascism hasn't meant anything other than bad since shortly before the end of WWII.

Also, the line between right wing populist and left-wing populist is no more clear than fascist and right-wing populists either.

yeah, but so what? charlie kirk didn't run propaganda for left wing populists. left wing dictators, right wing dictators, and the trump admin all have a bunch of stuff in common. the discussion is around whether or not applying those labels to describe charlie kirk's beliefs is accurate or not

 

[jimbob]

It's not the people accused of communism who are facing assassination attempts, it's the people accused of fascism.

Um that's not actually true.

Again, actual violence against people on the right doesn't bother you. It really should.

And where has anyone said that? It's just ironic that he was killed by the very things he was pushing.

To make your assertion work, you have to take the most implausibly benign interpretation of Kirk's words and the least benign interpretation of others.

You are using special pleading.

 

[dirtywick]

Give me an example of a small government dictatorship. Where has it ever been done?

pinochet

From Dictatorship to Democracy: Chile’s Outdated Constitution

On September 11, 1980, General Augusto Pinochet, head of the authoritarian military junta that staged a coup d’état in Chile, arranged a national plebiscite to ratify a new constitution. The referendum, approved by 67 percent of the population, served to solidify Pinochet’s position as President...

hir.harvard.edu

Pinochet and the military junta established an authoritarian regime on September 11, 1973, after overthrowing socialist President Salvador Allende and his Popular Unity government. Two principles guided the new regime. The first was a complete depoliticization of society, achieved through repression, intimidation, and persecution of any opposition to the regime; political parties were banned, national electoral registries burned, and local governments and universities restructured. The second was a strict free-market economy based on prioritizing exports, the privatization of government social welfare programs, and private property.

 

[sackett]

A good read on this topic:

Mussolini's Italy
Richard J. B. Bosworth
Penguin Publishing Group
1970

736 pages, so it's not light reading, especially propped up in bed.
Of course, Musso had 20 years to do his stuff, but the comparisons/contrasts might be
interesting in today's speedier world.