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Merged (edited) General thoughts about Christianity and the bible

Two simple trains of thought:

1. God is wholly imaginary. Whether it be in the Bible or in the thoughts of believers, every instance of God is simply a made-up story. And I can easily dismiss made-up stories as 100% not real (e.g. Dracula).

2. The very concept of God is an impossibility. Believers don't simply want a creator or an omnipotent deity. What they really want is salvation from their existential anxieties, but such salvation is impossible. No heavenly theme park of immortal bliss is going to change the fact that existence is meaningless.
And of course away from that approach the gods that people claim they believe in do have definitions that include claims about properties, if we test for those properties and find they are not present then we know that god 100% doesn't exist. Some like the Christian Throuple we don't even need to get to the level of evidence - as described in the bible and in many of the various Christian sects' theologies (Mormonism excepted) is a logically inconsistent being in at least a couple of ways.
 
Rusty Tyler said:
Most reasonable folks would agree with that. (but not you)
What's your factual basis for this statement?
Millions of Christians worldwide.

Current reports of Jesus appearing to Muslims in their dreams.
And not just a few.

Approximately 200 Muslims in Gaza recently came to Christ after they saw Jesus in visions and dreams and realized they had shared the same experience, according to a new report from the region. Source
 
I agree partially.
Written by men? Yes.
Men who made up stories? No.
You don't apply that questioning to your ancient texts.
No, because we know they are fiction. Your claim is that the bible is not.

Every story ever told or written, fact or fiction, was written by humans. It's very clear that the bible is as well - a god would surely not be as ignorant about a world it had created - the bible was written by the humans of the time, who knew very little about the world they inhabited.
 
Rusty Tyler said:
Most reasonable folks would agree with that. (but not you)

Millions of Christians worldwide.
And you're sure that all of them accept the Bible as history because of reason? You make a big point about you accepting things on the basis of warrm-fuzzies. That fails the reasonableness standard.

Current reports of Jesus appearing to Muslims in their dreams.
Claims of supernatural occurrences are not even in the same county as reasonableness and have nothing to do with verifying the history claims of the Bible.

Yes, we know that millions of people claim to believe the Bible and accept it with little if any question—including its purported role as a historical record. My question is what makes that reasonable as opposed to credulous.
 
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I'm a bit of a trouble-maker on Christian forums.
Based on my views they say I am "an enemy of the Christian Bible." (whatever that means)

I disagree with the views regarding the Bible that I was taught growing up in the church.
- Inspiration (as in, every word is inspired) In reference to English translations.
- Inerrancy (no errors)
- Literal history (as opposed to figurative mythology) What were Moses' sources?
- Authorship integrity (who really the Gospels?) Gospel Q?

Additionally, I'm a Universalist. I don't believe in a forever burning hell.
I foresee the ultimate redemption of humankind.

So, here's the question:
Can a person hold these views and still call themselves a Christian?

Why not? I'm a Christian by upbringing and practice. I hold the credentials to participate in adult Christian worship in several major Protestant denominations that claim to require such credentials. I am very well versed in Christian narratives and I use those narratives to guide my thinking when they seem to be applicable. (Yes when writing sympathy cards. No when assembling electrical wiring.) I have had Christian-themed religious experiences. Narratives, practices, and experiences define a religion.

Oh, wait, you're asking me about bleef, or telling me you have a problem with bleef? Why worry about that? Who cares? Zeus doesn't care what you bleeve as long as you keep the fires lit at his temple. Cthulhu doesn't care what you bleeve; he'll devour you anyhow if he awakens. Mohammed (PBUH) didn't care what you bleeved as long as you fought in his army and gave him all the spoils. Your school teachers didn't care what you bleeved as long as you wrote the right answers down on the test. And YHWH? There's nothing in the Ten Commandments about bleeving, just a lot of thou shalts and thou shalt not regarding actions. And people who claim to care the most what you bleeve, who for instance claim to bleeve heaven and hell are on the table, rarely act like they actually bleeve much themselves. It says right there not to covet. "God wrote it, I bleeve it, that settles it. Then I do it anyway, inccessantly. Labubu! Balenciaga fhtagn!"

Well, okay, there's Jesus and that verse people hold up on signs. Jesus does say, bleeve in him. There's the historical and religious anomaly, the special card in the Christianity deck, the reason why the flock for two centures has been bleating bleef bleef bleef. Deal with it. Figure it out. I don't see anyone living eternally. Good "bleeving" Christians die like everyone else. So maybe that verse isn't quite accurate, or isn't quite literal, or bleef isn't as easy or as common as people think.

Today the Pope (PBUH) issued a Pope-thing (encyclical?) about AI, apparently referencing the Tower of Babel in that context. I haven't read it yet but I plan to; it's an important issue and potentially an interesting take. (I've gotten by so far regarding AIs as demons. Not the IT "programs that run in the background" daemons; nor sexy anime demons. Soulless fiends from lower planes who mimic human speech for deceptive and destructive purposes in medieval tales demons. Apparently dealing with AI is more like writing a sympathy card than like assembling electrical wiring.) One wonders what past Popes have written about tall buildings. For a matter that motivated the second greatest (arguably the absolute greatest, in terms of total number of human lives taken over time) divine punishment in Biblical history, Christian authorities seem awfully sanguine about the evils and metaphysical perils of tall buildings, and often even willing to partiipate in prestige tower-building themselves. It's almost as though which stories in the Bible are historically true and which are not, is less important than which we pay attention to and which we disregard. It's difficult to understand that, though, if you're worshipping a golden idol made out of bleef itself.
 
What the hell does this mean?

Why would you believe divine revelation at all?
I mean how do you determine that something is divine vs something that was just someone's mind run astray?
It was all created by men.
You follow the advice of that great philosopher:

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
 
I don't believe that in the standard way.
What is "the standard way?" What is your way?

I limit what I consider to be divine revelation.
Me too. I start off with the null hypothesis that no claim to divine revelation is true, and I require evidence in each case to overcome that null.

An English translation was created by men.
There is no evidence that any part of the Bible was not created by the efforts of humans.
 
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Rusty Tyler said:
That doesn't seem to be a good reason to dismiss supernatural events that occurred in the first century.
Just because you don't believe they could happen today.
It's a very good reason. Not a single supernatural event has ever been proven to have happened. And until they are, there is every reason to dismiss them regardless of when they have been reported to have happened.

Me, I don't believe in fairy tales. Didn't when I was six and still don't today.
 
Rusty Tyler said:
Most reasonable folks would agree with that. (but not you)

Millions of Christians worldwide.

Current reports of Jesus appearing to Muslims in their dreams.
And not just a few.

Approximately 200 Muslims in Gaza recently came to Christ after they saw Jesus in visions and dreams and realized they had shared the same experience, according to a new report from the region. Source
What about the billions of muslims?

What about all the Christians who have converted to islam (around 30 000 annually in the US alone)?

These are not good arguments for either belief.
 
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Not every word, I agree, but some parts are.
Discarding it as the divine word of God robs it of the special status that you're arguing we should afford it. You keep asking us why we should discard the account in the Bible. We keep telling you why—to us it has no special status and therefore when it makes farfetched claims, we take those claims as reasons to doubt its authority on any point. On the contrary, you read accounts in it of people talking to the dead and turning water into wine and consider those farfetched claims proved by their inclusion in the book. That's ironclad proof that you're biased toward believing the Bible as some kind of special source. Giving lip service to the obvious errors while wanting to maintain its special status doesn't fix your argument.
 
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...according to Paul. The fun thing about claiming communications with a dead guy is that the dead guy isn't around to dispute you.


Claiming to have been sent visions ≠ personal relationship,


Recounting a well-known fact about someone ≠ persona relationship with that person.


Claiming telepathy from a dead person ≠ personal relationship.


Here he's not even claiming to be the one who received the revelation.


At best it's hearsay about what Paul claimed to have done.

When you complain that people ignore your evidence (or at best, aren't convinced by it), it's because you don't seem to understand what actually constitutes evidence. You're constantly trying to equate a claim with evidence that the claim is true. At times you're not even grasping the plain meaning of what you're reading. Questions like, "Why would you dismiss the biblical account?" presupposes the historical authority of the Bible. The Bible is a reasonably reliable (although incomplete) source for what Christians believe. It is not proof that what Christians believe is true.

A lot of this is sounding like what in my former life I would have taken to be signs of a psychotic state requiring a full psychiatric assessment...
 

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