Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

[Ziggurat]

Actually, yes it is what you said. You are justifying the USA's killing of civilians by claiming Iran also kills civilians.

No, it isn't what I said. What I said is that YOU don't actually care about Iranian civilian deaths.

OK how do you think the current US military action in which a lot of people are dying including quite a few civilians is going to help topple the Iranian regime.

By weakening it. By killing a lot of the people who are oppressing the Iranians. By destroying a lot of their weapons. By crippling their command and control. By depriving the regime of money, which every dictatorship needs to keep paying its soldiers and cronies.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

BARTIROMO: Did you see Europe is drafting a plan to open up the Hormuz Strait without the United States?

TRUMP: It's so sad. Look at Greenland. We should have Greenland.

WTF are you wittering about now? You buggered up the Strait of Hormuz, world trade is in deep trouble right now because of you, and so far you haven't fixed it. And you don't seem to be able to focus for five seconds in a row.

 

[Steve]

You're siding with Iran. "Civilized" isn't actually a metric you care about.

Same can be said of those siding with the USA. Nothing particularly civilized about their actions.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Trump: "You call it the Strait of Hormuz or the Hormuz Strait. The only thing you can't call it is the Trump Strait. They don't like that idea."

Maybe they'd like the fat senile orange ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ strait. Can you focus on un-◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ the problems you've caused instead of whichever bit of fawning flattery you want next?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

that's the basic problem: the US, but more specifically Israeli, have nothing to offer Iran. There is no carrot.
there is no scenario in which Iran is better off with the US and Israel in the Region.
And all Israel has to offer the Gulf States is spy software to keep taps on dissidents.

The Pax Americana was based on the Western World being objectively better off under US dominance than they would have been on their own or under Communism.
This is no longer true - most countries would do better if the US would just leave them alone.

 

[Planigale]

Israel targets paramedics after attack, then in a triple tap targets the second set of paramedics.

Israel appears to be targeting health care infrastructure and health care workers in Lebanon just as it did in Gaza.

Israeli triple-tap strike kills three paramedics in Lebanon, officials say

Lebanon's government condemns as a "flagrant crime" the killing of the paramedics, one of whom featured in a BBC report.

www.bbc.co.uk

https://reliefweb.int/report/lebanon/ifrc-strongly-condemns-killing-lebanese-red-cross-paramedic-hasan-badawi-while-ambulance-mission

How Israel is destroying healthcare infrastructure in southern Lebanon

Israel's attacks on hospitals, medical centres and healthcare workers are fuelling displacement and a health crisis.

www.aljazeera.com

https://www.bmj.com/content/392/bmj.s572

 

[The Atheist]

Israel targets paramedics after attack, then in a triple tap targets the second set of paramedics.

Israel appears to be targeting health care infrastructure and health care workers in Lebanon just as it did in Gaza.

Smart move if you're conducting a genocide. They know they'll never be held to account.

 

[Planigale]

No, it isn't what I said. What I said is that YOU don't actually care about Iranian civilian deaths.

By weakening it. By killing a lot of the people who are oppressing the Iranians. By destroying a lot of their weapons. By crippling their command and control By depriving the regime of money, which every dictatorship needs to keep paying its soldiers and cronies.

This doesn't require actively killing the civilians, though it will still result in civilian deaths because also the regime won't be able to pay health care and emergency workers, pay pensions, buy medicines, maintain sanitation.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

that's the basic problem: the US, but more specifically Israeli, have nothing to offer Iran. There is no carrot.
there is no scenario in which Iran is better off with the US and Israel in the Region.
And all Israel has to offer the Gulf States is spy software to keep taps on dissidents.

The Pax Americana was based on the Western World being objectively better off under US dominance than they would have been on their own or under Communism.
This is no longer true - most countries would do better if the US would just leave them alone.

To be fair the US does have something to offer to Iran, the permanent demilitarisation of Israel.

They'd take that.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Stephen Miller almost says that Trump is seeking a "final solution" in Iran but then catches himself

Video in link

 

[jeremyp]

No, it isn't what I said.

Yes it is. When asked about the morality of the USA killing Iranian civilians, your answer was that the Iranian government does it too.

If you don't want people to think you support the USA killing civilians because Iran also kills civilians, you should stop saying it.

What I said is that YOU don't actually care about Iranian civilian deaths.

You have said that several times since you said it is OK for America to kill Iranians becauseIran does it too. It's not true, but I have so far ignored it because you sound like a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ child.

By weakening it. By killing a lot of the people who are oppressing the Iranians.

You're not weakening it. They hate America now with even more vehemence than before you started. They have a common enemy against which they can unite.

By destroying a lot of their weapons. By crippling their command and control. By depriving the regime of money, which every dictatorship needs to keep paying its soldiers and cronies.

You haven't read much history have you.

Edit: Just to clarify, whenI say "you are not weakening it", you are not weakening the regime's grasp over their own population. You are also strengthening their resolve against the American infidels. Before this vanity war, you could have persuaded me that Iran is not going to build nuclear weapons. You can't do that now. If I was an Iranian leader, nuclear weapons would be a priority so I would have some leverage to stop Americans from bombing me.

America ballsed it up after the overthrow of the Shah and they are ballsing it up again now.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

People are just lying when they say that sanctions and bombing a regime makes a revolution easier: when infrastructure collapses and resources becomes scares. It's always the people with the guns who get to decide who gets what and therefore control everything.
Just as with Gaza, blockades strengthen a Regime.

If you want change, you flood the system with goods as to make everyone independent of the rulers. And you make migration out of the country as easy as possible.

Every economist, sociologist and people with brains understand that.
But some people have to justify the completely disproportionate US and Israeli military spending by pretending that it can do things it objectively can't.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

BTW, people who argue for Regime Change through Public Hardship would never in a million years apply that principle to exploited workers getting rid of their bosses.

 

[Axxman300]

Same can be said of those siding with the USA. Nothing particularly civilized about their actions.

You have to keep in mind we elected a vindictive moron, and his junta into office. I didn't vote for the guy, but enough jackholes did. The US is now run by a guy who has NEVER learned from his mistakes in a productive way. He has zero understanding of foreign policy at any level (including basic geography), and his cabinet are a bunch of crooks, and socially inbred ideologues. This is not Korea, this is not Vietnam, this is not El Salvador, or Nicaragua. This isn't even bombing the pharmaceutical plant in Sudan.

This is pointless naked agression.

We (the USA) have no ethical, moral, or even strategic point to stand on/hide behind. Not this time. You might argue those strikes we made last year might have been strategically plausible, but we've undone everything this time around. Hell, we can't even sail the USS Truman through the Suez Canal, we've sent it around Africa, something I don't think we've ever done before, and we did it because the ship is a sitting duck in the canal. All this mess, and for what?

I'll say it again, I've rooted for B-52 strikes on Tehran since 1979. They've been the bad guys since day-one. But we (the United States) crossed an ugly line here. I guess we can take solace in the fact we're not targeting civilians like the Russians have in Ukraine, but the cold truth is we shouldn't be bombing anything. Our airmen, marines, and soldiers aren't stupid. The damage this will cause in the military alone will take decades to fix. And the political mess domestically is about to clog the toilet as both sides seek the advantage over seeking using their Constitutional congressional powers to stop all of this. We literally have no competent leadership in our elected bodies in D.C. at the moment.

So I don't know what to say any more. I won't root against our forces, I'm not buying a Carcano, but I can't defend my countries actions re: Iran. It's not so much about shame as it is disgust with my fellow Americans who've been willingly suckered by social media manipulation over the past 17 years.

 

[Resume]

The Iran War Powers resolution failed in the house 214-213. Mostly along party lines save for Dem Rep Jared Golden voting with the republic party and GOP Rep Massie voting with the Dems. GOP Rep Warren Davidson voted present.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No you are right. They are not magic. That's why, when you negotiate with somebody, it's better to convince them you can be trusted when you say you'll do something as part of the negotiations. Nothing breeds distrust like killing the negotiators while they are negotiating.

It depends entirely on who you're negotiating with, and what tactics they will actually respect.

When you're negotiating with a friendly neighbor over where the property line is, and whether the tree you're planting is going to cross it when it reaches full height, yes - convincing them you can be trusted is important.

When you're negotiating with a hostile neighbor whose teenager has repeatedly lobbed eggs at your house and dropped dog poo on your doorstep, "you can trust me" is probably a lot less effective than "I'm going to involve the police". And realistically, actually involving the police at some point is far, far, far more likely to result in future negotiations being successful.

Some people view niceness as weakness, and will only respect your negotiating position when you show that you have teeth and are willing to use them.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'll say it again, I've rooted for B-52 strikes on Tehran since 1979. They've been the bad guys since day-one. But we (the United States) crossed an ugly line here.

Because we used B2's instead of B-52s? I don't get it. Other than the fact that Trump is president, how is this NOT what you wanted, if you've wanted us to bomb Tehran from the start?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Considering he's chickened out half a dozen times on Iran, multiple times on tariffs, Greenland and Canada, I rate the chance of him threatening China at 0.0000%.

Even that thicko fat ◊◊◊◊ must be aware of the thousands of silos China has built. I wonder where they're aimed?

Make up your mind.

Do you want Trump to play nice and not kill people unnecessarily or not? You criticize when Trump makes threats, you criticize when Trump takes direct action, and you criticize when Trump holds back. You don't have to like them, I understand hating them. It just seems inconsistent to simultaneously criticise every action no matter what.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Interestingly almost the exact same number people shot by Americans in the USA last year. Fortunately not all of them died, so Iran is merely more efficient than Americans in this regard.

The US Government did not kill 40,000 citizens last year. These are not even remotely the same things, and the false equivalence you're attempting to foist off is shameful.

 

[The Atheist]

Axxman, that is one of the best posts I've ever seen.

Kudos.