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Split Thread Pronouns and expectations

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It normalises it. It makes people for whom it might not be the default more comfortable with sharing their own. Furthermore, it pisses off the transphobes.


The "usual nomenclature" is wrong. Preference doesn't enter into it. I'm not saying that I would prefer you to use he/him when referring to me, I'm saying that he/him is correct and she/her is incorrect. I will also accept they/them, but that's more or less universal.

We should stop thinking that pronouns are a preference. There's the right pronoun, and the wrong pronoun, and that's all.


Well, it's not all about you, is it?


You use the correct pronoun. To do otherwise would be inaccurate and impolite, even if she never knows you did it. And is your buddy going to be seeing her penis (I had to look up what the "Crying Game surprise" was)? Why would your buddy be seeing her penis, unless he were either already in an intimate relationship with her, in which case he probably is already aware, or her doctor?
"Dude identifies as a dude" has always been normal.

No it's not "all about me". But in order for this to become "normalized" it is essential that individuals, with all their myriad different personal views, situations, and experiences buy into it to some worthwhile degree. Statements such as this in this discussion imply that you do not care about my, or others personal situations, and do not work to advance understanding.
 
You use the correct pronoun.
Well that seems too easy? The correct pronoun for a male is "he", and more rarely "they" can be acceptable.
To do otherwise would be inaccurate and impolite, even if she never knows you did it.
It has nothing to do with her, and the accuracy is objective.
And is your buddy going to be seeing her penis (I had to look up what the "Crying Game surprise" was)? Why would your buddy be seeing her penis, unless he were either already in an intimate relationship with her, in which case he probably is already aware, or her doctor?
Don't judge my buddy or his greetings. That's impolite.

Seriously though, I'm totally cool with calling people with whatever their selfID is, after it's been disclosed. But I'm asking if there is anything wrong (in your view) with explaining the objective stuff first, to avoid the needless confusion by not doing so in advance?

Eta: I'm also giving.myself Mongo woke credits for not blinking when I read the words "her penis" in that post.
 
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Well that seems too easy? The correct pronoun for a male is "he", and more rarely "they" can be acceptable.
Yes. It is quite easy. They/them can refer to anybody, and I always use it when the gender of the person I'm referring to is unknown or ambiguous.

It has nothing to do with her, and the accuracy is objective.
It has everything to do with her. By referring to her as "him", you are giving your buddy the incorrect pronoun, which he is now more likely to use when in her presence, since in your scenario, he's explicitly going to meet her.

Don't judge my buddy or his greetings. That's impolite.

Seriously though, I'm totally cool with calling people with whatever their selfID is, after it's been disclosed. But I'm asking if there is anything wrong (in your view) with explaining the objective stuff first, to avoid the needless confusion by not doing so in advance?
If she is trans, femme-presenting, but not passing (which is something that is important to some trans people and not important to others), then her status as a transgender woman will be evident. You don't need to "warn" your buddy about anything. If she is trans, femme-presenting, and passing, then who cares? There is no "confusion".

Furthermore, "explaining the objective stuff" in advance is actually potentially outing her status as a trans woman without her consent. And that is something that you just don't do. It's for her to disclose if she chooses, not you.

Just use the correct pronoun. It's not difficult. It's not an effort. If you're not sure, ask. No transgender person of my experience (and I know more than a few) would be offended if you just politely ask.
 
I could say the identical thing about you. Without even changing any words.
But I'm not the one here fighting hard to make others accept your views on the topic. In my case it actually is pretty much "all about me" because I am the one who might someday have to deal with gender identity on a personal level. And how I deal with it will come primarily from what I am learning on this forum. Admittedly my caring re gender identity would apply primarily and practically to my own personal situation and contacts. Any discussion regarding those outside of my own circle and contacts is purely academic because my thoughts have literally zero effect on them. I have never been in a situation outside of this forum where gender identity has ever been a topic. Nobody IRL has ever advised me of their own gender identity, or the gender identity of a mutual acquaintance. It has simply never been an issue for me.

So I say again, if you want me (and others) to seriously consider your own point of view, statements such as (yours above) in this discussion imply that you do not care about my, or others personal situations, and do not work to advance understanding.
 
Just use the correct pronoun. It's not difficult. It's not an effort. If you're not sure, ask. No transgender person of my experience (and I know more than a few) would be offended if you just politely ask.
"Hi, I see you are presenting as a lady, but I am not sure if you pref...errr... if you are one. When I talk about you to someone else, should I say he, she or they? Or perhaps there is an even more correct xe or ve?"

You can see how it is a little difficult or awkward, right?
 
"Hi, I see you are presenting as a lady, but I am not sure if you pref...errr... if you are one. When I talk about you to someone else, should I say he, she or they? Or perhaps there is an even more correct xe or ve?"

You can see how it is a little difficult or awkward, right?
Maybe you're over thinking it. Why not just ask "What pronouns do you prefer?"
 
It has simply never been an issue for me.
"It has never been an issue for me" is not the same thing as "it will never be an issue for me". develop good habits now, and you won't have to adapt if and when your circumstances change. It costs zero effort and you end up being a kinder person. Why would you resist?

*bzzzzt*

NOT preferred remember. Only "correct".
Correct. The better question is "What are your pronouns?" Don't make a big song and dance out of it. If you prefer, ask them quietly and in private. I once worked with a drag queen who routinely wore femme clothes to work. I realised at one point that I had used he/him a few times, so I took a moment to quietly say "hey, I've been using he/him as your pronouns, is that correct?" He replied "yes, it is, and thank you for asking."

See? Simple, not at all awkward, and they will be grateful that you were thoughtful enough to ask. In general I have found that people who are often misgendered have developed the habit of giving their pronouns along with their name when they first introduce themselves, so it's rarely an issue. I encourage the voluntary sharing of one's pronouns, whatever they are.
 
"It has never been an issue for me" is not the same thing as "it will never be an issue for me". develop good habits now, and you won't have to adapt if and when your circumstances change. It costs zero effort and you end up being a kinder person. Why would you resist?
Resist? You don't seem to comprehend what I am saying. Here, I will repeat a post I made a mere two hours ago. You point out where I am "resisting":

But I'm not the one here fighting hard to make others accept your views on the topic. In my case it actually is pretty much "all about me" because I am the one who might someday have to deal with gender identity on a personal level. And how I deal with it will come primarily from what I am learning on this forum. Admittedly my caring re gender identity would apply primarily and practically to my own personal situation and contacts. Any discussion regarding those outside of my own circle and contacts is purely academic because my thoughts have literally zero effect on them. I have never been in a situation outside of this forum where gender identity has ever been a topic. Nobody IRL has ever advised me of their own gender identity, or the gender identity of a mutual acquaintance. It has simply never been an issue for me.

So I say again, if you want me (and others) to seriously consider your own point of view, statements such as (yours above) in this discussion imply that you do not care about my, or others personal situations, and do not work to advance understanding.
 
Resist? You don't seem to comprehend what I am saying. Here, I will repeat a post I made a mere two hours ago. You point out where I am "resisting":

But I'm not the one here fighting hard to make others accept your views on the topic. In my case it actually is pretty much "all about me" because I am the one who might someday have to deal with gender identity on a personal level. And how I deal with it will come primarily from what I am learning on this forum. Admittedly my caring re gender identity would apply primarily and practically to my own personal situation and contacts. Any discussion regarding those outside of my own circle and contacts is purely academic because my thoughts have literally zero effect on them. I have never been in a situation outside of this forum where gender identity has ever been a topic. Nobody IRL has ever advised me of their own gender identity, or the gender identity of a mutual acquaintance. It has simply never been an issue for me.

So I say again, if you want me (and others) to seriously consider your own point of view, statements such as (yours above) in this discussion imply that you do not care about my, or others personal situations, and do not work to advance understanding.
Consider two American tourists in a foreign country. One makes an (admittedly terrible) attempt to use the local language and follow the local customs, one adamantly refuses to on the basis of Why Should They, Everyone Speaks English. That's not a lot of information to go on, but it's enough, isn't it? Now, imagine both tourists have returned to the states where they are regaling a third American with their stories. Whose advice would you rather have that third fellow follow?

With that analogy firmly in mind, hear my words: all people are people. People mostly just want respect. Respect in this case is just calling someone what they want to be called, especially if it is not what you would ordinarily call them. That's really all it boils down to. It's not a large ask to not be intentionally rude. It might seem obvious and unnecessary to go out of your way to ask complete strangers that, should the situation ever come up, please don't be an ass about it, but, well... <gestures vaguely around>. If it's never been an issue for you, it may never be an issue for you, but for those for whom it is an issue, it is always an issue, every damned day with every new person they meet. If you ever meet such a person, a little understanding will go a long way.
 
If she is trans, femme-presenting, but not passing (which is something that is important to some trans people and not important to others), then her status as a transgender woman will be evident. You don't need to "warn" your buddy about anything. If she is trans, femme-presenting, and passing, then who cares? There is no "confusion".
Yes, there is. You say so yourself:
I once worked with a drag queen who routinely wore femme clothes to work. I realised at one point that I had used he/him a few times, so I took a moment to quietly say "hey, I've been using he/him as your pronouns, is that correct?" He replied "yes, it is, and thank you for asking."
And that is the meat of it for a lot of us. This person was clocking as male to you, so you used the correct pronoun English speakers use for a male- he. Upon realizing it may not be the preferred pronoun, you checked. So ok, done and done. That's what I was asking you about. Is it cool to use the correct pronoun till you are told of a preference otherwise (no, not everyone agrees with your assertion of what is correct, and you are causing needless confusion since the very topic is 'which is correct?').

I agree with your handling of a person who could go either way. That was the cool and respectful thing to do. But for the vast majority, the clocking suffices, and it feels very much like a comedy routine to pretend you have no idea what a typical presenting guy or gal would prefer to be called. In my neck of the woods, it would be taken as an insult to ask a guy if he was a man or woman, kind of like obliquely saying that he don't look like no man to you.

And I'm pretty sure that's the problem. I want to be inclusive, but I don't expect everyday interactions to be phony to reinforce it. If a man, woman, transwoman, or platypus-kin furry was to see yours truly, I don't think anyone would have anything that needed to get cleared up about my gender. Pretending so, even with the best of inclusive intentions, is insulting to all parties, especially the transperson.
 
Consider two American tourists in a foreign country. One makes an (admittedly terrible) attempt to use the local language and follow the local customs, one adamantly refuses to on the basis of Why Should They, Everyone Speaks English. That's not a lot of information to go on, but it's enough, isn't it? Now, imagine both tourists have returned to the states where they are regaling a third American with their stories. Whose advice would you rather have that third fellow follow?

With that analogy firmly in mind, hear my words: all people are people. People mostly just want respect. Respect in this case is just calling someone what they want to be called, especially if it is not what you would ordinarily call them. That's really all it boils down to. It's not a large ask to not be intentionally rude. It might seem obvious and unnecessary to go out of your way to ask complete strangers that, should the situation ever come up, please don't be an ass about it, but, well... <gestures vaguely around>. If it's never been an issue for you, it may never be an issue for you, but for those for whom it is an issue, it is always an issue, every damned day with every new person they meet. If you ever meet such a person, a little understanding will go a long way.
Given that you quoted my post I am not sure that if this is supposed to counter anything I have said. Although I hate analogies with a passion, and I am not sure that I get the point of yours, I have no disagreement with anything in your second paragraph. This whole pronoun business is a learning process that I may or may not ever have an opportunity to actually use. My only caveat is that, IMO, the person for whom it is an issue should be the one taking the lead in such situations and not expect others to be the first to ask.

I just recalled that in a pharmacy that I frequent every employee has their gender identity written on their name tag. That certainly simplifies thing in that particular situation.
 
As I am thinking this thing through I am realizing that the pronoun issue as it relates to casual encounters in my life is really no different than any other aspect of people I encounter. I am not a "people person". I an very much a loner and have very little interest in other people. I am superficially pleasant to people because it smooths over such encounters. I am not a "chatty" person and quickly get bored with casual and aimless conversations. I have no animosity and am content for anyone to be exactly who they are - gay, trans, religious, more skin melanin than me (or less), pronouns, and anything else you care to identify - mean very little to me. They are just people who enter my life for some reason and then leave again. If pronouns are identified to me during that brief encounter as important I will accommodate that for the time and then they will leave my mind along with names and pretty much everything else about that person. Whatever personal issues a casual encounter my have that are not relevant to the issue at hand should, IMO, be kept out of the encounter. I do not tell people my own personal issues. It is none of their business. And I think others should reciprocate
 
Given that you quoted my post I am not sure that if this is supposed to counter anything I have said. Although I hate analogies with a passion, and I am not sure that I get the point of yours, I have no disagreement with anything in your second paragraph. This whole pronoun business is a learning process that I may or may not ever have an opportunity to actually use.
The point of the analogy is that you're the third person, hearing two other people argue about a foreign perspective (issues with trans individuals) you have no direct experience with. What they each take away says more about them than anything else, so what you hear needs to be taken with the knowledge of who is saying it.

Specifically, this whole thread is only an issue because trans people are being demonized in US politics right now. You may not disagree with the second paragraph, and if so I doubt you'd run into any trouble even if the situation comes up. But plenty of people very much do disagree that trans people have a right to be called what they wish by anyone, or even to exist.

My only caveat is that, IMO, the person for whom it is an issue should be the one taking the lead in such situations and not expect others to be the first to ask.
Were it possible for the world to leave them to resolve their own issues, fine. We're talking about a fraction of a fraction of the population, after all. Donald Trump has more felony convictions than the NCAA has transgender athletes. But as an appendix of the ongoing fascist putsch, it's very definitely a "first they came for the trans individuals, and I spoke up because I've read the rest of the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ poem" situation.
 
The point of the analogy is that you're the third person, hearing two other people argue about a foreign perspective (issues with trans individuals) you have no direct experience with. What they each take away says more about them than anything else, so what you hear needs to be taken with the knowledge of who is saying it.

Specifically, this whole thread is only an issue because trans people are being demonized in US politics right now. You may not disagree with the second paragraph, and if so I doubt you'd run into any trouble even if the situation comes up. But plenty of people very much do disagree that trans people have a right to be called what they wish by anyone, or even to exist.


Were it possible for the world to leave them to resolve their own issues, fine. We're talking about a fraction of a fraction of the population, after all. Donald Trump has more felony convictions than the NCAA has transgender athletes. But as an appendix of the ongoing fascist putsch, it's very definitely a "first they came for the trans individuals, and I spoke up because I've read the rest of the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ poem" situation.
Making this USA political issue is not a thing that this non-American has any interest in pursuing. There are a number of non-Americans contributing. Discussing it as a relevant social issue is sufficient for me.
 
It is what someone prefers, rather than any being “correct” as they are socially constructed, and in mainstream culture they have traditionally matched the sex of someone, but times are a changing, and people now want to change the social constructions and choose their pronouns for themselves which may or may not match their sex. So societies will change as the older folk pass away (in importance to defining society).
 
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