Split Thread Pronouns and expectations

[8enotto]

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Your mistake. You think everyone has sig lines turned on.

Can I be somehow offended and call you a sig line bigot? Oh wait, that would also be silly.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I don't think I've ever been asked, the beard is a bit of a give away. But while if would be a surprise to be asked, I wouldn't take offence. I figure it's like when Amazon drivers ask me for proof of age, no-one with functioning eyes is going to mistake me for under 18, but if everyone's asked mistakes are less likely to be made and no-one need feel they're being singled out.

 

[Steve]

I don't think I've ever been asked, the beard is a bit of a give away. But while if would be a surprise to be asked, I wouldn't take offence. I figure it's like when Amazon drivers ask me for proof of age, no-one with functioning eyes is going to mistake me for under 18, but if everyone's asked mistakes are less likely to be made and no-one need feel they're being singled out.

I just cannot envision a situation where I would be asked. And if someone makes a "mistake" I would find it hard to care. What type of conversation would require a person to use pronouns, other than the non-gendered "you", referring to me while talking to me?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I just cannot envision a situation where I would be asked. And if someone makes a "mistake" I would find it hard to care. What type of conversation would require a person to use pronouns, other than the non-gendered "you", referring to me while talking to me?

Filling in forms on somebody else's behalf is one possibility that springs to mind, because I used to do it a lot. Or a conversation with more than two participants. I find it hard to care too, but in the other direction, if someone wants to ask me, fine, it takes two seconds to answer and if asking me saves the person asking, or answering, embarrassment when it's someone who's less obvious then I'm okay with that.

 

[bruto]

I just cannot envision a situation where I would be asked. And if someone makes a "mistake" I would find it hard to care. What type of conversation would require a person to use pronouns, other than the non-gendered "you", referring to me while talking to me?

Any situation where you might be referred to in the third person is one in which gendered pronouns are likely, and not likely to be under your control; asking beforehand seems a useful courtesy. It is unlikely to be relevant in conversation but might be more so if you are a subject in a speech, a news article, or the like. Again, I think such a thing is reciprocally dependent on prevailing attitudes. In a society where gender and its roles are not considered of much importance, an error even if multiplied in print might not be either, but in our current world, where gender is often a an indicator of authority or qualification, and dysphoria dimissed as madness, and where misgendering is often an intentional insult, it is.

 

[Steve]

Filling in forms on somebody else's behalf is one possibility that springs to mind, because I used to do it a lot. Or a conversation with more than two participants. I find it hard to care too, but in the other direction, if someone wants to ask me, fine, it takes two seconds to answer and if asking me saves the person asking, or answering, embarrassment when it's someone who's less obvious then I'm okay with that.

Still not able to envision a situation where it applies. Not following the applicability of filling out forms.

 

[theprestige]

Any situation where you might be referred to in the third person is one in which gendered pronouns are likely, and not likely to be under your control; asking beforehand seems a useful courtesy.

Not caring also seems like a useful courtesy.

 

[Steve]

Any situation where you might be referred to in the third person is one in which gendered pronouns are likely, and not likely to be under your control; asking beforehand seems a useful courtesy. It is unlikely to be relevant in conversation but might be more so if you are a subject in a speech, a news article, or the like. Again, I think such a thing is reciprocally dependent on prevailing attitudes. In a society where gender and its roles are not considered of much importance, an error even if multiplied in print might not be either, but in our current world, where gender is often a an indicator of authority or qualification, and dysphoria dimissed as madness, and where misgendering is often an intentional insult, it is.

Nothing here that seems to be applicable or matter in my life. If I casually misgender a marginal acquaintance in a conversation where that person is not present it is almost certain that person will in all likelihood never know it. And among people I actually know (a very small group) there is no one who has ever indicated that being misgendered is a thing that matters. Truth be told, when I see and follow these conversations it is more a matter of academic value/curiosity than anything I ever expect to encounter IRL.

 

[Thermal]

We sometimes identify people in the third person, like when telling a friend who is going to meet someone else, "he's the tall guy with long brown hair". If the third person identifies as a woman but is not real slamming 'passing', what do you say? "She's the woman with long brown hair"? Your buddy would never find them. You kind of have to start with the real, then qualify it. "He's a guy with long brown hair, but he is a she. So heads up there". Is that fair? Or are you supposed to refer to the third person as a "she" and give your buddy the Crying Game surprise?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Still not able to envision a situation where it applies. Not following the applicability of filling out forms.

Most forms have a Mr, Mrs, Ms box?

 

[Steve]

Most forms have a Mr, Mrs, Ms box?

If it is someone that close to you then gendering would be a trivial non-issue, with no possibility of any offense to be taken. Anyway those are titles not pronouns.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree that we shouldn't have to declare our pronouns since most of us needn't, just as we needn't declare our orientation. But unfortunately, too many people these days equate this not only with not accepting, but openly reviling, minority choices. It would be nice to imagine a world in which casual assumptions of the default are simply corrected and accepted, and life goes on.

I don't quite see how that is going to happen when so many are convinced that deviation from the norm is sin or mental illness, and that attitude is reinforced by the administration. I can well support the idea that people should not be so upset by misattribution, but I can see why they can be when it is so often a matter of contention in which their very identity is at stake.
I suspect that much of the coercive and inconvenient issue of pronouns and such would be irrelevant if people simply accepted each others' differences and could count on others to do the same.

And yet so many have on other issues. Homosexuality is also considered a sin. It was also considered by health professionals a mental illness until 1973. Changing minds take time. That's the reality. But it is definitely doable.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

If it is someone that close to you then gendering would be a trivial non-issue, with no possibility of any offense to be taken. Anyway those are titles not pronouns.

Why would it have to be someone close to you? Some people help others fill in forms, personally I was selling people a several hundred quid's worth of wine and filling in the order form, accidentally causing offence could have cost me the order and been the difference between making or losing money.

 

[Steve]

Why would it have to be someone close to you? Some people help others fill in forms, personally I was selling people a several hundred quid's worth of wine and filling in the order form, accidentally causing offence could have cost me the order and been the difference between making or losing money.

Third party wine order forms had to specify Mr, Mrs, etc? If you say so. Did the third parties read the forms that you filled out for them? If so it seems that they could have cut out the middle 'man" and done their own order forms, thus ensuring that everything was correct and they wouldn't risk being offended

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Third party wine order forms had to specify Mr, Mrs, etc? If you say so. Did the third parties read the forms that you filled out for them? If so it seems that they could have cut out the middle 'man" and done their own order forms, thus ensuring that everything was correct and they wouldn't risk being offended

When you're selling an expensive luxury product filling in the form gets you a step closer to closing the sale, and claiming your commission on it.

I knew I shouldn't have dipped a toe into this discussion. My position is literally that I do not care if I'm asked or not and won't take offence to either.

 

[bruto]

And yet so many have on other issues. Homosexuality is also considered a sin. It was also considered by health professionals a mental illness until 1973. Changing minds take time. That's the reality. But it is definitely doable.

Is it all that doable without a push? A lot of people still hold to ideas that the law has theoretically discarded. I'm not entirely convinced that our current power base would not vote to undo many of the advances we've seen in recent years, willing to combine "some of my best friends" exceptions with retrograde laws to protect their expensive freedom. The right set of demagogues and fabrications and lies have power out of proportion. Generations of apparent acceptance can give way surprisingly quickly to smashed windows, yellow stars and Kosovars thrown doen the wells.

Changing minds does take time, and I'm not saying it can't happen, but how much time and how much change is acceptable might look different depending on where you're standing

 

[acbytesla]

Is it all that doable without a push? A lot of people still hold to ideas that the law has theoretically discarded. I'm not entirely convinced that our current power base would not vote to undo many of the advances we've seen in recent years, willing to combine "some of my best friends" exceptions with retrograde laws to protect their expensive freedom. The right set of demagogues and fabrications and lies have power out of proportion. Generations of apparent acceptance can give way surprisingly quickly to smashed windows, yellow stars and Kosovars thrown doen the wells.

Changing minds does take time, and I'm not saying it can't happen, but how much time and how much change is acceptable might look different depending on where you're standing

No doubt. I agree pretty much with every point you just made. And that is why I think we should bypass the cosmetic. Just as the US ignored well defended islands with the war against Japan. Focus simply on live and let live.

 

[theprestige]

When you're selling an expensive luxury product filling in the form gets you a step closer to closing the sale, and claiming your commission on it.

I knew I shouldn't have dipped a toe into this discussion. My position is literally that I do not care if I'm asked or not and won't take offence to either.

The question isn't whether you care about being asked or not.

The questions are whether you care about whether other people care, and whether you care if other people decline to participate.

Is your not caring a personal preference, that you exercise without concern for how what other people's personal preferences might be? Or is it a virtue you would prescribe as a social norm?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

The question isn't whether you care about being asked or not.

The questions are whether you care about whether other people care, and whether you care if other people decline to participate.

Is your not caring a personal preference, that you exercise without concern for how what other people's personal preferences might be? Or is it a virtue you would prescribe as a social norm?

Deal with whatever your problem is, being asked a question doesn't bother me.


ETA: And I'm out.

 

[arthwollipot]

When one announces a pronoun for themselves that all but a very few would default to anyway it has no recognizable significance.

It normalises it. It makes people for whom it might not be the default more comfortable with sharing their own. Furthermore, it pisses off the transphobes.

The usual nomenclature is preferred pronoun.

The "usual nomenclature" is wrong. Preference doesn't enter into it. I'm not saying that I would prefer you to use he/him when referring to me, I'm saying that he/him is correct and she/her is incorrect. I will also accept they/them, but that's more or less universal.

We should stop thinking that pronouns are a preference. There's the right pronoun, and the wrong pronoun, and that's all.

Nothing here that seems to be applicable or matter in my life. If I casually misgender a marginal acquaintance in a conversation where that person is not present it is almost certain that person will in all likelihood never know it. And among people I actually know (a very small group) there is no one who has ever indicated that being misgendered is a thing that matters. Truth be told, when I see and follow these conversations it is more a matter of academic value/curiosity than anything I ever expect to encounter IRL.

Well, it's not all about you, is it?

We sometimes identify people in the third person, like when telling a friend who is going to meet someone else, "he's the tall guy with long brown hair". If the third person identifies as a woman but is not real slamming 'passing', what do you say? "She's the woman with long brown hair"? Your buddy would never find them. You kind of have to start with the real, then qualify it. "He's a guy with long brown hair, but he is a she. So heads up there". Is that fair? Or are you supposed to refer to the third person as a "she" and give your buddy the Crying Game surprise?

You use the correct pronoun. To do otherwise would be inaccurate and impolite, even if she never knows you did it. And is your buddy going to be seeing her penis (I had to look up what the "Crying Game surprise" was)? Why would your buddy be seeing her penis, unless he were either already in an intimate relationship with her, in which case he probably is already aware, or her doctor?