Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

There are two kinds of people who want to change their apparent sex:

First caveat: most don't, as I am repeatedly assured here. Somewhere in the 85% range IIRC?

those who seek medical help and those who DIY at home.

Shall we save the horror movie plots for another thread?

The former group are transgender in the sense of the term used by transmedicalists (AKA "truscum"), that is, they suffer from gender dysphoria.

Pretty sure ive read about some transwomen who made thf decision and transitioned positively. The dysphoris was relatively mild, really no more than that experienced by wrestling with the decision to make any major life change. I recall Alexis Black looking pretty chipper about it.

I think it is a terrible idea to treat any mental illness like a shameful character defect rather than a treatable condition.

(You are sliding transfolk into the mentally ill category again)

Among the things we are permitted to argue about here is whether the older literature was less misleading than the current literature.

Then qualify it as such. Repeatedly citing 5 when you know you mean an outdated version is not helpful.

 

[smartcooky]

*the WHO rolls its eyes at smartcooky's ignorance*

The WHO are not the be all and end all. They have often been wrong about stuff, and have been very slow to respind in crises (West Africa Ebola outbreak, for example)

The medical profession does not always get things right... remember thalidomide.... never mind, you're probably too young.

Again, scooter, that's what I just said. GD is s mental illness. Being trans is not. Do we really need to break out the crayons for you?

Thats a contradiction.

GD is a mental illness defined as 'distress from the incongruence between one's gender identity and biological sex'
Transgender people think their so-called gender identity* is at odds with their biological sex.

Frankly, I'm not seeing any difference between the two.

* I am of the opinion there us no such thing as a gender identity... its bunkum, a medical catchword made up by gender ideologues to give false credibility to their bat-◊◊◊◊ loony theories.

Oh, i forgot. Youre Doctor smartcooky, who thinks he has the qualifications to make medical diagnoses which he has zero qualifications to make.

Let me try my hand at that: 'smartcooky suffers from delusions of thinking he has diagnostic medical training'. No, wait- you actually do have that delusion. Never mind.

Stop being a dork!

 

[smartcooky]

(You are sliding transfolk into the mentally ill category again)

... and that is exactly where they belong.
Any man who looks down when he's naked in the shower and sees he has a dick swinging between his legs, and who doesn't undertand that he's a man, and instead thinks he's a women, is bonkers!!

 

[Ziggurat]

Need? No, not really. Should? I kinda think so.

What accommodations do they deserve, or should they receive, that you wouldn't extend to non-trans males who wanted those same accommodations?

 

[smartcooky]

The is the whole of Chris Elston's address to the European Parliament.


Mr Elston utterly TORCHES the concept of Trasngenderism in kids, the concept of Gender Identity, and the treatment of gender dysphoric kids with puberty blockers, which are irreversible and which, together with cross sex hormones, WILL render the victim sterile.

Part of his presentation is a harrowing 6 minute video interview in the street with a young woman called "Clementine". She went on puberty blockers at 12, testosterone from 13 to 17 and a double mastectomy at 14. She is now 20 and investigating undergoing reconstructive surgery and the possibility of suing the doctors who did this to her. The video begins at 19:42 if you just want to watch that.

He crucifies WPATH as well, showing from the leaked video of a Zoom conference, that they admit they don't know what they are doing. They are guessing! Oh, and @Thermal - you think the WHO should be listened to and should be accepted as the world experts on this? Well the WHO promote the WPATH standards of care for kids with gender dysphoria as do the UN.

At 46:37 begins another short video from a detransitioner, speaking directly to the camera. It is heartbreaking as she relates how she was betrayed by her doctors. If you do not feel for this girl after hearing her story, then you are a cold, soulless and beyond hope!

Now, I know that the gender ideologues and intellectual cowards on this forum won't look at any of this. I would go to the trouble of posting a transcript if I thought it would do any good, but I know it wouldn't make any difference - those same gender idealogues and intellectual cowards wouldn't read that either. Their minds are firmly bolted and padlocked shut to anything that might disturb their worldview.

But if you do want to just read a transcript, you can click on the video and go to watch in YouTube. Then pause the video, go into its description and click "Show Transcript". You can then read through the transcript in your own time at your leisure. The transcript is timestamped and the stamps link directy to the relevant point in the video.

 

[Thermal]

The WHO are not the be all and end all.

Neither I nor anyone else sugested they were. You said it was only a smal part of the global mental health community that endorsed that view. The WHO is the largest, and do endorse it, so you were factually wrong.

Do you know what 'moving the goalposts' means?

Thats a contradiction.

Only if you are Humpty Dumptying the definitions...

GD is a mental illness defined as 'distress from the incongruence between one's gender identity and biological sex'
Transgender people think their so-called gender identity* is at odds with their biological sex.

Frankly, I'm not seeing any difference between the two.

* I am of the opinion there us no such thing as a gender identity... its bunkum, a medical catchword made up by gender ideologues to give false credibility to their bat-◊◊◊◊ loony theories.

...aaaaaand you're Humpty Dumptying the definitions.

 

[Thermal]

What accommodations do they deserve, or should they receive, that you wouldn't extend to non-trans males who wanted those same accommodations?

Depending on how you define things, none. I want them.to have equal rights and accommodations.

And we both know what you are going to do: interpret them as all men, and say all men get the same rights and accommodations. That would be stunningly evasive and disingenuous. Let's just say we've already done that and save the bandwidth.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm concerned about the non-[dysphorics], because they're the small but vocal faction of misogynists and perverts who have the most influence on trans privilege in public policy, are mostly responsible for the anti-social capture of several key institutions, and are the ones making it so difficult for dysphorics to actually get the help they need.

I'm curious about how we could even begin know who is non-dysphoric among the activists—I don't mean an absence of medical documentation but rather an absence of the underlying diagnostic criteria themselves. It's not as if the self-diagnosed people are invariably wrong, this is a condition rooted entirely in self-perception and subjective experience, after all.

You are sliding transfolk into the mentally ill category again

You've yet to name a single transperson who did not claim to suffer from the symptoms of gender dysphoria, a mental illness so severe that it sometimes leads sufferers to remove healthy body parts and thereby risk anorgasmia.

 

[Thermal]

You've yet to name a single transperson who did not claim to suffer from the symptoms of gender dysphoria, a mental illness so severe that it sometimes leads sufferers to remove healthy body parts and thereby risk anorgasmia.

Untrue. I named Alexis Black, who posted that their only GD-like e perience was before they recognized it and embraced who they are. Then no distress was reported, only a positive journey. The transwoman I know had a similar trip; the only rough time was while he didn't understand what he was, and after he got it figured out, it was a relief and she started her new life with a smile (please excuse the gendered pronoun shifting).

And you have yet to name a single person that did not claim to suffer from any form of mental illness at some point in their lives. So what?

GD is not a disorder that must be as severe as you are alluding. Like depression, it can run the spectrum from barely noticeable to suicide. The problem remains with your oblique suggestion that just being trans is a mental illness. The medical community disagrees with that, and a person can live their lives as trans while we not suffering from a mental illness.

 

[Thermal]

You've yet to name a single transperson who did not claim to suffer from the symptoms of gender dysphoria, a mental illness so severe that it sometimes leads sufferers to remove healthy body parts and thereby risk anorgasmia.

Untrue. I named Alexis Black, who posted that their only GD-like experience was before they recognized it and embraced who they are. Then no distress was reported, only a positive journey. The transwoman I know had a similar trip; the only rough time was while he didn't understand what he was, and after he got it figured out, it was a relief and she started her new life with a smile (please excuse the gendered pronoun shifting).

And you have yet to name a single person that did not claim to suffer from any form of mental illness at some point in their lives. So what?

GD is not a disorder that must be as severe as you are alluding. Like depression, it can run the spectrum from barely noticeable to suicide. The problem remains with your oblique suggestion that just being trans is a mental illness. The medical community disagrees with that, and a person can live their lives as trans while we not suffering from a mental illness.

 

[d4m10n]

I named Alexis Black, who posted that their only GD-like experience was before they recognized it and embraced who they are.

To be clear, your hypothesis here is that the fellow who beat his wife and then took her name is an example of mental health rather than illness?

 

[Ziggurat]

Depending on how you define things, none. I want them to have equal rights and accommodations.

And we both know what you are going to do: interpret them as all men, and say all men get the same rights and accommodations. That would be stunningly evasive and disingenuous. Let's just say we've already done that and save the bandwidth.

You might disagree with that, but there's nothing disingenuous about it. And you're avoiding answering my question. How do you define it? What rights or accommodations do they deserve that other men do not? You must think they deserve something other than what other men get, or you wouldn't object to my position. But you do object to my position. So what else should they get?

 

[d4m10n]

To be clear, your hypothesis here is that the fellow who beat his wife and then took her name is an example of mental health rather than illness?

To be pellucidly clear, where can we find any examples of Alexis Black née Grant Freeman discussing their mental health history? I'd be surprised to learn that the sort of guy who breaks his wife's jaw has a clean bill of mental health, but let's dig in further here.

 

[d4m10n]

The problem remains with your oblique suggestion that just being trans is a mental illness.

The problem, AFAICT, is a complete failure to define the highlighted phrase in a way that makes sense in the absence of "incongruence between the gender that the patient sees themselves" and their actual sex alongside "a profound need for society to treat them as another gender" which are key diagnostic features of the mental illness under consideration.

 

[Thermal]

You might disagree with that, but there's nothing disingenuous about it. And you're avoiding answering my question. How do you define it? What rights or accommodations do they deserve that other men do not? You must think they deserve something other than what other men get, or you wouldn't object to my position. But you do object to my position. So what else should they get?

I've explained it repeatedly. They should be able to go to the places that align with their gender, just like everybody else.

And before you drolly say "they can go where their sex matches, just like everybody else ", yeah no ◊◊◊◊, that's what the thread has been about for ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ years. And that's what makes it disingenuous; you know that damn right well.

My take, as I've said, is that if we really value not discriminating, then we move to gender neutral spaces with a privacy stall or two. But in the practical sense, that seems too sweeping a change for such a small minority, and that small minority might be reasonably told "hey man, if you feel like you're in the wrong body, going to the 'wrong' rest room shouldn't be any big deal and you kinda need to suck it up". But that's some cold-ass problem solving, and it doesn't sit with me any better than the alternatives.

 

[Thermal]

The problem, AFAICT, is a complete failure to define the highlighted phrase in a way that makes sense in the absence of "incongruence between the gender that the patient sees themselves" and their actual sex alongside "a profound need for society to treat them as another gender" which are key diagnostic features of the mental illness under consideration.

"Being okay with it, without any undue stress that rises to the level of mental illness". It just ain't that complicated.

 

[Thermal]

To be clear, your hypothesis here is that the fellow who beat his wife and then took her name is an example of mental health rather than illness?

Pretty sure he beat his wife, are we? The police don't think so. Only a conservative tabloid asserts so, with zero evidence.

 

[Thermal]

To be pellucidly clear, where can we find any examples of Alexis Black née Grant Freeman discussing their mental health history? I'd be surprised to learn that the sort of guy who breaks his wife's jaw has a clean bill of mental health, but let's dig in further here.

I saw it in one of the links in posts put up earlier (might have been off the TMZ interview?). Black's insta or something was pulled while they documented their transition, including the start of their hormone therapy in February.

Eta: you really need to document the broken jaw thingy if you are going to keep spreading such a tale. We did that at length earlier. There is no public court record of it, as the tabloid claimed.

 

[Ziggurat]

I've explained it repeatedly. They should be able to go to the places that align with their gender, just like everybody else.

Places like changing rooms and bathrooms? You have previously said that trans status shouldn't give males such access to female spaces. Now you're saying that it should. There's absolutely zero consistency to anything you say.

And before you drolly say "they can go where their sex matches, just like everybody else ", yeah no ◊◊◊◊, that's what the thread has been about for ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ years. And that's what makes it disingenuous; you know that damn right well.

I think you're confused about what "disingenuous" means.

My take, as I've said, is that if we really value not discriminating, then we move to gender neutral spaces with a privacy stall or two.

We do NOT really value not discriminating. Nobody does, including the TRAs. They absolutely DO NOT want everything to be gender neutral. I sure as ◊◊◊◊ never said that I value not discriminating.

But in the practical sense, that seems too sweeping a change for such a small minority

No ◊◊◊◊, Sherlock. And they don't even want that.

, and that small minority might be reasonably told "hey man, if you feel like you're in the wrong body, going to the 'wrong' rest room shouldn't be any big deal and you kinda need to suck it up". But that's some cold-ass problem solving, and it doesn't sit with me any better than the alternatives.

I don't give a ◊◊◊◊ how anything "sits" with you. What are you actually advocating? You have not been consistent. Your "make everything gender neutral" is not a viable solution, so what's the next best thing?

 

[Thermal]

Places like changing rooms and bathrooms?

Changing rooms/showers, I don't think so. We need sex segregation in areas where nudity is expected.

You have previously said that trans status shouldn't give males such access to female spaces. Now you're saying that it should. There's absolutely zero consistency to anything you say.

Learn to read, jackass. They should, but doing so is tricky without stepping on the rights of others. Hence my wanting to talk about it with skeptics, to find a solution protects everyone as much as practical.

And I know, I know, yours is "◊◊◊◊ them trannys" and it works swell for you. Let's save the endlessly wasted bandwidth, shall we?

I think you're confused about what "disingenuous" means.

I am certainly not. And "youre confused". Kudos for joining theprestige in resurrecting your old catch phrases.

We do NOT really value not discriminating. Nobody does, including the TRAs. They absolutely DO NOT want everything to be gender neutral. I sure as ◊◊◊◊ never said that I value not discriminating.

In rare candor, you do freely acknowledge that you don't want sex segregation, you openly want sex discrimination. Bully for you.

I don't give a ◊◊◊◊ how anything "sits" with you. What are you actually advocating?

Again, learn to read. I'm sick of the endless repetition.