Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Rolfe]

And this. All of it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1999820932144140700

 

[d4m10n]

If Rachel is his legal name, then they should use his legal name.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Whenever someone legally changes their name while working for the DoW (née DoD) they have to jump through some hoops at the local personnel office but usually it all works out.

 

[d4m10n]

worldwide medical community

...generally supports the DSM-5 in this hemisphere.

[Tavistock's] 'own statistics and data' are widely discredited.

The Cass Report faulted them for failing to gather follow-up data, but (IIRC) not for shoddy record-keeping of the data they did actually gather.

 

[Thermal]

...generally supports the DSM-5 in this hemisphere.

...which is dysphoria, not being trans. Like, having legs is not equivalent to having broken legs.

{Eta: what is the problem ITT with specifically citing the DSM-5, when 5 specifically says transgenderism is not a disorder? Wouldn't it make more sense for you to cite an outdated version if that's the point you are trying to make?}

Cass Report faulted them for failing to gather data, but (IIRC) not for shoddy record-keeping.

The independent reviews prompted by the whistleblowers concluded that their standards for literally everything from identification of mental illness on down were ◊◊◊◊◊◊ six ways from Sunday. That's not a matter of record keeping.

 

[Thermal]

And this. All of it.

We could direct Diana to this thread, where we are assured that nothing about any of this is remotely analogous to race? I do recall being told that when the analogy was unflattering to your side.

 

[d4m10n]

...which is dysphoria, not being trans.

Can you think of anyone who is unquestionably transgender but never suffered from gender dysphoria?

DSM-5 specifically says transgenderism is not a disorder

I don't think it makes to say someone thinks of themselves as the opposite sex from their birth sex without thereby meeting the diagnostic criteria.

 

[Thermal]

Can you think of anyone who is unquestionably transgender but never suffered from gender dysphoria?

They don't generally report into me, so no.

I can absolutely point you to a transwoman of my acquaintance who, while possibly dealing with dysphoria for a short while years back, is an entirely well adjusted person now, and has been for quite some time. Like having a broken leg that healed well, she has no dysphoria that I know of, while still being trans.

I don't think it makes to say someone thinks of themselves as the opposite sex from their birth sex without thereby meeting the diagnostic criteria.

They don't generally say sex. They say gender, specifically. 'Transgender', not 'transsexual'?

 

[d4m10n]

I can absolutely point you to a transwoman of my acquaintance who, while possibly dealing with dysphoria for a short while years back, is an entirely well adjusted person now, and has been for quite some time. Like having a broken leg that healed well, she has no dysphoria that I know of, while still being trans.

I also know people who transitioned specifically to deal with gender dysphoria, both IRL and WWW.

(I've yet to meet or hear of anyone who transitioned for any other reason.)

They don't generally say sex.

Not sure where you are getting this from; trans activists here in the U.S. have been pretty clear on the doctrine that they are literally the opposite sex from the one recorded at birth.

 

[smartcooky]

...and the worldwide medical community, yeah...

Nope. It is only a relatively small part of the worldwide mental health medical community, most if whom are captured members of the gender ideology cult, who claim gender dysphoria is not a mental illness.

Tavistock's data? The outfit shut down by NHS after multiple internal whistle-blowers were screaming about how ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up and incompetent their procedures and protocols were? The one where female subjects went from a fraction of a percent of males to a whopping 70%, an inexplicable 5000% increase in seven years? Their 'own statistics and data' are widely discredited.

Wrong!
The clinic closed because it was identified that a single-provider model was unsafe, and that their procedures and treatments were based on weak evidence, and because they were overlooking complex needs and rushing treatments like puberty blockers, which was leaving children at risk of poor mental health. allof this was later identified in the Cass Report.
You should read it, you might learn something...

The Cass Report Is Out—An Early Analysis of Findings and Recommendations - Do No Harm

The Cass Report Is Out—An Early Analysis of Findings and Recommendations

donoharmmedicine.org

Three minutes to listen to a guy slowly say what could have been read in seconds. Most people object to videos for this reason, as well as sometimes desiring quiet, either personally or out of consideration for others around them.

Whatever

Your first major flub right out of the gate: the Tavistock data was only dealing with mentally ill people as the group for their study. You extrapolate that as all transpeople are mentally ill. Like, studying exclusively people with broken legs and declaring 'therefore all people with legs have broken legs'

Wrong!
The data came only from the GIDS clinic which was ONLY dealing with children and young people suffering from gender dysphoria.

Ya, they were drawing data from the severely mentally ill, not the general trans population.

Well yes, since the general trans population are severely mentally ill that makes perfect sense.

Your interpretation of the data you present indicates that it is YOU with a bit of cabeza en el culo..

Wrong!

 

[Thermal]

I also know people who transitioned specifically to deal with gender dysphoria, both IRL and WWW.

(I've yet to meet or hear of anyone who transitioned for any other reason.)

Is there no room in our philosophy for a transperson who doesn't or didn't experience dysphoria? This line gets intentionally blurred too often.

I would expect life altering distress about being trans at some point for many transpeople. I think we all have life altering stresses at one time or another, for a variety of reasons. They get worked out, and you move on. But you seem to think they should carry that designation around like a Scarlet Letter in perpetuity? Once mentally ill, forever mentally ill?

Not sure where you are getting this from; trans activists here in the U.S. have been pretty clear on the doctrine that they are literally the opposite sex from the one recorded at birth.

Some do. Pretty sure they are not a faceless homogenous blob that all assert that with one voice. Willing to further bet that 'transgender' is much more widely used than 'transsexual', in all the literature.

 

[Aber]

The Cass Report faulted them for failing to gather follow-up data, but (IIRC) not for shoddy record-keeping of the data they did actually gather.

No, I think that was the Keira Bell case where the judge was surprised at the lack of record-keeping.

 

[Aber]

eta: just having some fun- lately when any sales associate calls me 'sir' (which I hate, not being Knighted), I respond with 'Don't misgender me, bigot'. It gets a nervous laugh, as I'm not smiling when I say it.

Listen when people tell you what they are.

 

[d4m10n]

Is there no room in our philosophy for a transperson who doesn't or didn't experience dysphoria?

There are two kinds of people who want to change their apparent sex: those who seek medical help and those who DIY at home.

The former group are transgender in the sense of the term used by transmedicalists (AKA "truscum"), that is, they suffer from gender dysphoria.

I'm fairly unconcerned with the latter group because they pose no ethical issues for the medical profession.

But you seem to think they should carry that designation around like a Scarlet Letter in perpetuity?

I think it is a terrible idea to treat any mental illness like a shameful character defect rather than a treatable condition.

Willing to further bet that 'transgender' is much more widely used than 'transsexual', in all the literature.

Among the things we are permitted to argue about here is whether the older literature was less misleading than the current literature.

 

[Ziggurat]

At this stage I am seriously asking myself how many times Sandy Kemp has had covid.

I really liked this follow-up:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1999766330451570695

 

[Thermal]

Nope. It is only a relatively small part of the worldwide mental health medical community, most if whom are captured members of the gender ideology cult, who claim gender dysphoria is not a mental illness.

*the WHO rolls its eyes at smartcooky's ignorance*

Wrong!
The clinic closed because it was identified that a single-provider model was unsafe, and that their procedures and treatments were based on weak evidence, and because they were overlooking complex needs and rushing treatments like puberty blockers, which was leaving children at risk of poor mental health. allof this was later identified in the Cass Report.

Literaly what i just said. Their protocols and procedures were ◊◊◊◊◊◊, yet you want to rely on them when rhetorically convenient.

Whatever

Ever the intriguing rebuttals, you craft.

Wrong!
The data came only from the GIDS clinic which was ONLY dealing with children and young people suffering from gender dysphoria.

Again, scooter, that's what I just said. GD is s mental illness. Being trans is not. Do we really need to break out the crayons for you?

Well yes, since the general trans population are severely mentally ill that makes perfect sense.

Oh, i forgot. Youre Doctor smartcooky, who thinks he has the qualifications to make medical diagnoses which he has zero qualifications to make.

Let me try my hand at that: 'smartcooky suffers from delusions of thinking he has diagnostic medical training'. No, wait- you actually do have that delusion. Never mind.
.

Wrong!

Another poignant rebuttal.

 

[Ziggurat]

...and the worldwide medical community, yeah...

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. People suffering from it should be treated with compassion and receive treatment.

Transgenderism without dysphoria may not be mental disorder, but there's no reason anyone needs to accommodate it either. They don't need treatment, and they don't deserve entitlements.

 

[Thermal]

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. People suffering from it should be treated with compassion and receive treatment.

Agreed.

Transgenderism without dysphoria may not be mental disorder, but there's no reason anyone needs to accommodate it either.

Need? No, not really. Should? I kinda think so.

They don't need treatment, and they don't deserve entitlements.

I think most everyone deserves some entitlement, within reason. Often, the more, the better.

The hitch is "within reason". Calling a transman a 'he' socially? Sure, no skin off my back, and it makes them feel more welcomed and at ease. Getting in the shower with a bunch of young boys is not within reason, I don't think.

 

[theprestige]

There are two kinds of people who want to change their apparent sex: those who seek medical help and those who DIY at home.

The former group are transgender in the sense of the term used by transmedicalists (AKA "truscum"), that is, they suffer from gender dysphoria.

I'm fairly unconcerned with the latter group because they pose no ethical issues for the medical profession.

I think it is a terrible idea to treat any mental illness like a shameful character defect rather than a treatable condition.
Among the things we are permitted to argue about here is whether the older literature was less misleading than the current literature.

I'm concerned about dysphorics because they actually need help, that it's difficult for them to get in the current climate.

I'm concerned about the non-ds, because they're the small but vocal faction of misogynists and perverts who have the most influence on trans privilege in public policy, are mostly responsible for the anti-social capture of several key institutions, and are the ones making it so difficult for dysphorics to actually get the help they need.

Thermal likes to pretend we're lumping the two together, that we're talking about the former when we clearly mean the latter, and that we're over blowing the effect the latter are having on the debate, and on society in general.

 

[Thermal]

I'm concerned about dysphorics because they actually need help, that it's difficult for them to get in the current climate.

I'm concerned about the non-ds, because they're the small but vocal faction of misogynists and perverts who have the most influence on trans privilege in public policy, are mostly responsible for the anti-social capture of several key institutions, and are the ones making it so difficult for dysphorics to actually get the help they need.

Thermal likes to pretend we're lumping the two together, that we're talking about the former when we clearly mean the latter, and that we're over blowing the effect the latter are having on the debate, and on society in general.

No, what Thermal can't help but notice is your above assertion that non-disphorics are "misogynists and perverts". That functionally ends any rational discussion on the matter. Since you choose to start there, there's no where to go.

 

[theprestige]

No, what Thermal can't help but notice is your above assertion that non-disphorics are "misogynists and perverts". That functionally ends any rational discussion on the matter. Since you choose to start there, there's no where to go.

I agree that rational discussion went out the window, once the non dysphoric perverts and misogynists took over the debate.

It's too bad you've taken their side in this.