The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[JayUtah]

Please can you remind me of what it is.

Are all accountants this incompetent or only the triple-niners?

It's post #6320 in this thread.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yes, it is claimed a Kannad 406F doesn't come with an automatic version but it does. Remember: I stick to facts, not to 'being right'.

It's a fact that an automatic Kannad cannot have its immersion activation turned off by the user. Stick that fact in your pipe and smoke it. It proves you're not right.

 

[Mojo]

I confirm if I cite Helsingin Sanomat then it came from Helsingin Sanomat.

Date? And a link, please, as you evidently copied and pasted it from somewhere.

 

[Mojo]

Please can you remind me of what it is.

It's a passage of text from a longer report, but that's not important right now.

 

[JayUtah]

It's a fact that an automatic Kannad cannot have its immersion activation turned off by the user. Stick that fact in your pipe and smoke it. It proves you're not right.

Indeed, some of us were taught how to use EPIRBs when we learned to sail treacherous waters. I doubt Vixen has ever been in the same room with one.

 

[JayUtah]

Yes, and it's born of something that's insatiable. Come back next year and she'll be doing a fringe reset of the epirb nonsense etc etc, even unto the end of time.

This thead is good for laughs, but that's all.

Indeed, Oscar Wilde is reputed to have said the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Conspiracy theorists seem to fear obscurity, the feeling that they don't matter. But as the audience begins to lose interest, the conspiracy theorist sometimes has to descend into childish behavior to keep attention focused on them. Negative attention is still attention.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Rescue helicoptors did not arrive until an hour after the last MAYDAY at 01:31 (end time). It is quite likely a MAYDAY was attempted before Tammes finally got through. The JAIC puts the time of the major irrecoverable heel at circa 01:15, which is the start of its timeline as being when the bow visor fell off. But survivors relate feeling bangs, shudders and violent jolts at least fifteen minutes before that. When the vessel heeled and the lights were extinguished, the emergency generator came on and mostly stayed on until the vessel sunk completely (according to people on life rafts who lived to tell the tale). Yet Tammes and Ainsalu reported in the MAYDAY's there was a 'blackout' They must surely have been talking about a blackout on the bridge because otherwise the MAYDAY would have been sent from the proper official radio equipment on the bridge, not a hand held walkie talkie. Unlike the emergency generator with a limited life span, the bridge had a full UPS back up battery system, apx 240v. So, had the EPIRB's been activated, the COSPAS-SARSAT satellites would have had the distress signals closer to - at its earliest - circa 01:15, when the starboard side was partly already submerged. So yes, there would have been a difference of up to one hour in terms of earlier rescue of the >300 people who managed to scramble onto the by now horizontal port side. So, we have the issues of (1) the bridge unable to communicate, (2) the EPIRB's not activated and in (3) the nearby vessels, obliged by law to go to the rescue of other ships nearby in distress, unable themselves to communicate except with great difficulty to the coastguard MRCC. So, if one treats the whole thing as an innocent case of force majeure then of course nobody is going to investigate the deliberate attack angle but of course, it must have done and indeed is likely classified.

So the buoys self triggering after the ship sank would have made no difference at all

They should have been turned on and thrown overboard as soon as the mayday was first declared.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, it is claimed a Kannad 406F doesn't come with an automatic version but it does.

What does that even mean?

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Consider the following:

There are four individuals: one individual states the world is round from their own observation, fact-finding and evidence-weighing. Three say the earth is flat. Two of these individuals have never given it much thought and go by what everybody else says. The fourth individual with similar reasoning powers as the first can see that indeed, the earth almost certainly is round but wants to be one of the crowd and fears losing popularity.

Question: which of these individuals would you most closely identify with?

I would identify with the one who understands that observation, fact-finding, and evidence-weighing lead to concluding the earth is (topologically) a ball.

I would not identify with the two triple-niners 98-percenters who think the earth is flat because they are so stupid as to think that's what everybody else says. (I wrote "triple-niners" because I assumed those who think the earth is flat are expressing a belief that makes them very special by not being part of the 99.9% who think the earth is round. I had to cross that out because I subsequently learned that only 98% of adult Americans are so unspecial that they are not certain the earth is flat. 84% think the earth is round, while 14% are skeptical/doubtful/unsure.)

I would not identify with the one who says the earth is flat only because she's afraid of being unpopular among the 16% crowd who think the earth is flat or are unsure/doubtful/skeptical.

I am not sure what any of that has to do with this thread, in which there is only one person who consistently makes statements that are at odds with observation, facts, and evidence, apparently for the purpose of establishing her credibility as a triple-niner who doesn't just go along with the 99.9% who have not completely lost their grip on reality.

It is simply not possible for me to say I believe something when I do not.

I believe you when you say you believe your memory is absolutely fine.

Believing your memory is absolutely fine does not mean your memory is absolutely fine. Your belief that something is so does not overcome the fact that it is not so. We know your memory is not absolutely fine because you regularly engage in conversations that go like this:

I confirm my memory is absolutely fine.

You keep forgetting to tell us what that paragraph from the Brandenburg report means in your own words.

Please can you remind me of what it is.

Are all accountants this incompetent or only the triple-niners?

It's post #6320 in this thread.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The MV Estonia had fully compliant hydrostatic-release free float buoys. Please read the following carefully and stop with the persistent denial of established facts.

Estonian emergency buoys were a forgotten tuning The two emergency buoys of the car ferry Estonia did not send a signal to the rescuers because they had not been tuned on board. Emergency buoys burst to the surface properly as the ship sank. Turma's International Commission of Inquiry has investigated the activities of the emergency buoys that drifted off the Estonian coast. The buoys' batteries were fully charged, but they could not send anything untuned, says Commissioner Kari Lehtola. The committee closed the two-day meeting on Friday in Helsinki. The so-called EPIRB emergency buoys had been recently serviced and had been placed in place in accordance with the rules. However, during the installation phase, the activation of the buoys was forgotten: the protective cover must be opened and turned on the coupling head. In Estonia, the activation of the emergency buoy was one of the tasks of the radio electricians, of which there were two on board.

The investigation is still ongoing, but the Commission has consulted the radio electrician on the matter, said Asser Koivisto, the Commission's expert. The purpose of the emergency buoy is to send the location of the sunken ship and to tell the searchers the name of the ship. According to Koivisto's assessment. Helsingin Sanomat

Given the two buoys were certified as having been inspected and tested as having a signal (this means activating it for a short period) just the week before, then either (a) the ship's electrician didn't do his job properly and they were never tuned, or (b) someone deactivated them and (c) this was either via incompetence or vandalism, or given all the other factors coinciding - mid-journey time-wise and distance-wise, having just reached international waters and the explosions/collision/shudders at Swedish midnight, together with the Captain being 'taken out', as it were, or (d) deliberately planned in advance, with the aim of the vessel disappearing underwater with no-one being any the wiser for some period of time.

More ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.. The buoys don't need to be "tuned' and can't be tuned by anyone but the manufacturer or the certified third party workshop that refurbishes expired time units with new batteries and checks their operation.

They are set in the workshop and are sealed units.
There's nothing anyone aboard a ship can do to them apart from a battery check, they are ready to go out of the box.

You are just making ◊◊◊◊ up.

 

[Steve]

I confirm my memory is absolutely fine.

You actually cannot remember what your memory is like.

 

[LondonJohn]

What does that even mean?

We're in the realms of logical twisting here.

Kannad does indeed now make an auto-activated (immersion-activated) version of its EPIRB. Its model code is 406AF. The model code of the Kannad EPIRBs aboard the Estonia that night was 406F. I wonder if Vixen can divine the difference between the two model codes? Perhaps the letter A in the revised/updated model might mean something to her......?

 

[Andy_Ross]

• If they were manual EPIRB's they do not need a hydrostatic release mechanism.
• SOLAS regulations say ALL ships must have an automatic float free EPIRB
• Nowhere does JAIC say M/S Estonia was not compliant with regard to EPIRB's.
• We know the EPIRB's on M/V Estonia were compliant with the hydrostatic automatic regulations because there is a clear still of a Rockwater diver holding the Hammar release mechanism.
• A manual one does not need a hydrostatic release mechanism, you simply chuck it in the water.
• A manual one does not need to be fitted on each side of the bridge where it hits the water; it would be within arm's length.
• End of.

Have you skipped the last few dozen posts or are you just deliberately ignoring them?
You are just deliberately trying to wind people up or you have a medical condition that affects your short term memory recall.

It's as if you have selective blindness to any post that shows why your claims are wrong

 

[Here_to_learn]

Remember: I stick to facts, not to 'being right'.

If you look at Bloom's taxonomy regarding educational goals, you will find that being able to repeat facts is only the first step (Knowledge). After that follows Comprehension, Application, Analysis, Synthesis and finally Evaluation.

Being able to state facts is the start. You then need to be able to demonstrate an understanding of the facts to show that you have moved to the next level.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Correct. They don't need it. But the manufacturer supplied one model of case for both types.

All new EPIRBs had to be automatic. When the ship's existing manual ones reached their expiration date, they would have been replaced with automatic models.

Compliance did not require existing manual EPIRBs to be replaced before their expiration date.

None of this is materially relevant, and you cannot be unaware of this by now.

Don't bother this has been posted almost word for word several times over the last 24 hours.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for rule 12 and FMF content

 

[LondonJohn]

Consider the following:

There are four individuals: one individual states the world is round from their own observation, fact-finding and evidence-weighing. Three say the earth is flat. Two of these individuals have never given it much thought and go by what everybody else says. The fourth individual with similar reasoning powers as the first can see that indeed, the earth almost certainly is round but wants to be one of the crowd and fears losing popularity.

Question: which of these individuals would you most closely identify with?

It is simply not possible for me to say I believe something when I do not.

It's amusing that you consider yourself analogous to the first person in your little story.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Indeed, some of us were taught how to use EPIRBs when we learned to sail treacherous waters. I doubt Vixen has ever been in the same room with one.

Allowing the immersion trigger to be deactivated would render a buoy none compliant with regulations.
It would also be an obviously stupid thing to be able to do.

I have owned several over the years as equipment on various boats. I just got rid of the last one along with the yacht it's fitted to in the summer.

Thankfully I've never had to use one.

 

[JayUtah]

We're in the realms of logical twisting here.

Kannad does indeed now make an auto-activated (immersion-activated) version of its EPIRB. Its model code is 406AF. The model code of the Kannad EPIRBs aboard the Estonia that night was 406F. I wonder if Vixen can divine the difference between the two model codes? Perhaps the letter A in the revised/updated model might mean something to her......?

Model numbers are sacred in a regulated product space. If you want your product qualified to satisfy a regulatory requirement, that certification is tied to your manufacturer's model identifier. You can't say, for example, that the 406AF is just a rebranded 406F.

 

[Steve]

Please can you remind me of what it is.

Don't you remember?

 

[JayUtah]

Being able to state facts is the start. You then need to be able to demonstrate an understanding of the facts to show that you have moved to the next level.

As a teacher at college I sometimes had the unpleasant task of informing students that their level of comprehension was insufficient to qualify as an engineer. A lot of those people transferred to business school.