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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

zooterkin said:
Not to mention that if it were explosives, it was a red herring since it had patently failed to explode.
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Given the visor falling off can only be due to the failure of the locks, then clearly, you would need more than one such device to loosen them. One failing to detonate may not have stopped the sheer weight of the visor being prised off anyway, thanks to the other well-placed devices. As you know, the Atlantic lock was thrown back into the sea and the lugs left on the sea bed so we can never know what damage, if any, happened to them. Imagine a key piece of evidence being thrown away!
 
As a Royal Navy Clearance Diver he would be familiar with PE8 blocks of RDX based explosives. I had some limited experience with it on a course.
Blocks are divided down in to individual charges for underwater demolition of obstructions or destruction of old ordnance.
The other main type is PE4, basically the same stuff but with different blast characteristics.


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Vixen said:
Given the visor falling off can only be due to the failure of the locks, then clearly, you would need more than one such device to loosen them. One failing to detonate may not have stopped the sheer weight of the visor being prised off anyway, thanks to the other well-placed devices. As you know, the Atlantic lock was thrown back into the sea and the lugs left on the sea bed so we can never know what damage, if any, happened to them. Imagine a key piece of evidence being thrown away!
Click to expand...

Oh dear. So, so wrong. The bow visor fell off because the bottom lock failed (poor design, poor maintenance, heavy oncoming seas), which in turn caused the bow visor to hinge open; then, the wind and wave force slammed the visor open and shut (as heard by the survivors) for a few minutes until the hinges and side pistons were finally ripped open and the entire visor broke free, tearing open the vehicle ramp as it did so and leaving the bow completely exposed to the oncoming waves.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
We have been around this loop before, on exactly this same point of Vixen not grasping that the Estonia disappeared from radar, and that is not at all the same thing as sonar.
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Exactly. And someone who had the first idea what they were talking about would NEVER casually confuse sonar and radar. Just what we've come to expect.
 
Vixen said:
Us ladies are capable of thinking for ourselves.
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Nobody is suggesting otherwise (oh, and it should be "we ladies"). The problem arises because the product of your "thinking for yourself" - your statements and arguments related to this disaster - are so unfailingly inept, scientifically-illiterate, and risibly incorrect.
 
Steve said:
Thinking for oneself is not a gender issue. Your attempt to make it one reflects poorly on your own thought processes.

Does your thinking ability provide you with sufficient information to give us a consistent and reasonably complete narrative of your own view of the events surrounding the sinking of the Estonia?
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As I have said before, given:

  • the JAIC never really looked into the communications issues
  • and despite knowing the automatic EPIRBS* failed to initiate
  • the Estonian section, who were head of the JAIC being refused sight of the unedited diver videos
  • the constant clamouring of persons of interest (experts 'in the know') for a reinvestigation of the holes in the hull, which they claim were known of all along
leads me to believe that the full facts are definitely 'classified' and probably will be for another 39 years (i.e., the usual 70-year period for classified information). This is due to political, military and other sensitive issues, such as the US CIA rendition programmes, given US geopolitical interest in this matter, together with the tensions between Sweden - USSR- and the former Soviet Baltic States during and after the Cold War.

* This issue is important because a functioning EPIRB is a real and/or potential life-saver. In the event it was over an hour before rescue helicopters were on their way. We know they were of the automatic type because:

  • Compliance with SOLAS regulations arising from The Herald of Free Enterprise investigation.
  • A signed off recent inspection by the ship's radio engineer.
  • Rockwater confirming the positions outside of the bridge and finding one EPIRB still in its case at the bottom of the sea, with the Hammar spring device having failed to release it.
  • The Hammar device can be clearly seen in the diver's hand in the video.
  • The other EPIRB was found washed up and switched off.
  • Being switched off does not ergo mean it was a manual EPIRB.
  • The reasons for the switched-off state could be (a) they were never activated when installed, despite the certified inspection, (b) they in 'active'-mode but then switched off because of (i) negligence, (ii) incompetence, (iii) vandalism or sabotage.
  • The JAIC were unfortunately not sufficiently curious so as to investigated the communications issues further.
 
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Vixen said:
As I have said before, given:

  • the JAIC never really looked into the communications issues
  • and despite knowing the automatic EPIRBS* failed to initiate
  • the Estonian section, who were head of the JAIC being refused sight of the unedited diver videos
  • the constant clamouring of persons of interest (experts 'in the know') for a reinvestigation of the holes in the hull, which they claim were known of all along
leads me to believe that the full facts are definitely 'classified' and probably will be for another 39 years (i.e., the usual 70-year period for classified information). This is due to political, military and other sensitive issues, such as the US CIA rendition programmes, given US geopolitical interest in this matter, together with the tensions between Sweden - USSR- and the former Soviet Baltic States during and after the Cold War.

* This issue is important because a functioning EPIRB is a real and/or potential life-saver. In the event it was over an hour before rescue helicopters were on their way. We know they were of the automatic type because:

  • Compliance with SOLAS regulations arising from The Herald of Free Enterprise investigation.
  • A signed off recent inspection by the ship's radio engineer.
  • Rockwater confirming the positions outside of the bridge and finding one EPIRB still in its case at the bottom of the sea, with the Hammar spring device having failed to release it.
  • The Hammar device can be clearly seen in the diver's hand in the video.
  • The other EPIRB was found washed up and switched off.
  • Being switched off does not ergo mean it was a manual EPIRB.
  • The reasons for the switch off state could be (a) they were never activated when installed, despite the certified inspection, (b) they in 'active'-mode but then switched off because of (i) negligence, (ii) incompetence, (iii) vandalism or sabotage.
  • The JAIC were unfortunately not sufficiently curious so as to investigated the communications issues further.
Click to expand...

The EPIRBs on the Estonia were of the manual-activation type. They were auto-release, but manual-activation. And since none of the crew managed to (manually) activate either of the EPIRBs before the ship sank, they remained unactivated and thus effectively useless. This has been conclusively covered several times now in these threads.
 
LondonJohn said:
Oh dear. So, so wrong. The bow visor fell off because the bottom lock failed (poor design, poor maintenance, heavy oncoming seas), which in turn caused the bow visor to hinge open; then, the wind and wave force slammed the visor open and shut (as heard by the survivors) for a few minutes until the hinges and side pistons were finally ripped open and the entire visor broke free, tearing open the vehicle ramp as it did so and leaving the bow completely exposed to the oncoming waves.
Click to expand...
Then it is a pity the Swedish investigators immediately threw it back into the sea having found it.
 
Vixen said:
As I have said before, given:

  • the JAIC never really looked into the communications issues
  • and despite knowing the automatic EPIRBS* failed to initiate
  • the Estonian section, who were head of the JAIC being refused sight of the unedited diver videos
  • the constant clamouring of persons of interest (experts 'in the know') for a reinvestigation of the holes in the hull, which they claim were known of all along
leads me to believe that the full facts are definitely 'classified' and probably will be for another 39 years (i.e., the usual 70-year period for classified information). This is due to political, military and other sensitive issues, such as the US CIA rendition programmes, given US geopolitical interest in this matter, together with the tensions between Sweden - USSR- and the former Soviet Baltic States during and after the Cold War.

* This issue is important because a functioning EPIRB is a real and/or potential life-saver. In the event it was over an hour before rescue helicopters were on their way. We know they were of the automatic type because:

  • Compliance with SOLAS regulations arising from The Herald of Free Enterprise investigation.
  • A signed off recent inspection by the ship's radio engineer.
  • Rockwater confirming the positions outside of the bridge and finding one EPIRB still in its case at the bottom of the sea, with the Hammar spring device having failed to release it.
  • The Hammar device can be clearly seen in the diver's hand in the video.
  • The other EPIRB was found washed up and switched off.
  • Being switched off does not ergo mean it was a manual EPIRB.
  • The reasons for the switch off state could be (a) they were never activated when installed, despite the certified inspection, (b) they in 'active'-mode but then switched off because of (i) negligence, (ii) incompetence, (iii) vandalism or sabotage.
  • The JAIC were unfortunately not sufficiently curious so as to investigated the communications issues further.
Click to expand...
All your old lies about EPIRBs again?

After they were extensively debunked and shown to be garbage previously?

Have you no shame?
 
LondonJohn said:
The EPIRBs on the Estonia were of the manual-activation type. They were auto-release, but manual-activation. And since none of the crew managed to (manually) activate either of the EPIRBs before the ship sank, they remained unactivated and thus effectively useless. This has been conclusively covered several times now in these threads.
Click to expand...
No, it hasn't, it's just pure hazing. They were SOLAS compliant auto-activated ones (see the HAMMAR device that auto-releases them in six-feet of water).



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Gloved hand of Rockwater diver clutching the Hammar device.


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I am not going to discuss this any further unless there is NEW information.
 
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