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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

catsmate said:
When? Evidence?
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You can find etails here. Water was leaking in and some of the locks were damaged, and repairs were carried out.

  • On the morning of 16 January 1993 during the voyage from Rostock to Trelleborg - i.e. two days after the hurricane in which the JAN HEWELIUSZ sank - there was again a storm of Bft. 10 blowing. Captain Söder was already on board the DIANA II to take-over the command from Captain Elfors after arrival in Trelleborg. The vessel proceeded through the very rough sea at ca. 12 kn. The chief mates Lindroos and Hartwigsson were on their handing-over round just in the forward part of the car deck when they noticed water leaking through the bow ramp. After the vessel had reached the shelter of the shore, both mates entered the inside of the visor through the hatch on the forecastle deck and found considerable damage to the hydraulic side locks (the manual side locks were not engaged) as well as to the Atlantic lock. After arrival the Classification Society B.V., Sjöfartsverket as well as TR Line were immediately informed and the responsible TR inspector instructed the master to have the damage repaired prior to the next departure. Estonia Ferry
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Re the M/V Estonia: From ONSE JAIC CHAPTER 1 - THE ACCIDENT

At about 0115 hrs the visor separated from the bow and tilted over the stem. The ramp was pulled fully open, allowing large amounts of water to enter the car deck. Very rapidly the ship took on a heavy starboard list. She was turned to port and slowed down.
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How the bow visor was locked. CHAPTER 3

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The visor pivoted around the two hinges on the upper deck during its normal opening and closing. It was secured in the closed position by three hydraulically operated locking devices at its lower part. One of these was mounted on the forepeak deck and the other two on the hull front bulkhead with mating lugs on the visor. Additionally, two manual locking devices were located in the area of the hydraulic side locks. Three locating horns, one on the forepeak deck and two on the front bulkhead, engaged recesses in the visor in order to guide the visor to its proper position when being closed and to absorb lateral loads.
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PLUS an extra lock:


The bottom lock​

The bottom locking arrangement is shown in Figure 3.7. The bottom lock was sometimes named the “Atlantic lock” as it was not in common use in early ferries but was later introduced to enable similar ferries to cross open oceans. The “Atlantic lock” had become established by the time the ESTONIA was built. The locking device consisted of a locking bolt, movable horizontally in a transverse direction, guided in a bolt housing.
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CHAPTER 8

The indicating sensors for the side locking lugs could not be inspected but the damage picture indicates that the locking devices were in fully closed position.
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JayUtah said:
Well, yes, I just explained that to you. And the answer is that gravity doesn't make the vertical case different from the horizontal case. You're welcome.


No.

You asked an AI to try to solve the problem for you. But because you have a poor grasp of the problem and couldn't instruct the AI suitably, you got back a nonsensical answer. As nearly as we can reconstruct your prompt, you asked it for the "pressure"—what you wanted was hydrodynamic drag—on a ship falling 85 meters through water. Not surprisingly you got back an answer telling you the hydrostatic pressure at a depth of 85 meters. That has zilch to do with drag or the velocity of a sinking ship, but you were too ignorant to know that. You proffered that solution as your brilliant slam-dunk against your critics.

You were punished because you didn't follow the forum rules governing the use of AI, and for no other reason.

But since you still think you've somehow solved the drag problem, tell us about it. I gave you a thorough explanation for gravity as it relates to the collision mechanics. Be as thorough for us, please. Show us the formula or model that you "plugged" the relevant values into. What are those values? Please prove that you understand the physics.
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I very clearly said it was an online calculator. You don't think I worked it out myself. It prompted me for all the parameters it needed to calculate the end result.
 
Vixen said:
I very clearly said it was an online calculator.
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You said that, but the only evidence on the table was that you asked an AI to solve the problem but didn't disclose that fact. So we'll ask again: show us the "online calculator" you used.

Vixen said:
You don't think I worked it out myself.
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Of course I don't think you worked it out by yourself.

Vixen said:
It prompted me for all the parameters it needed to calculate the end result.
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What parameters did it prompt you for?
 
Andy_Ross said:
Consider the three Destroyers lost in Typhoon Cobra in WW2.

Spence, Hull, and Monaghan were sunk after they rolled and pitched and water flooded down their funnels and extinguished their boilers. Without power, they were unable to control their heading, turned broadside on and were rolled past the point of recovery and swamped by the waves causing the machinery spaces to flood through vents, intakes and the funnels.
Hickox and Maddox pumped seawater into their empty fuel tanks, adding enough extra stability to ride out the storm with relatively minor damage.

In the case of USS Spence: Her rudder jammed hard to starboard, and she capsized and sank with 317 men drowned and only 3 survivors after hoses parted while attempting to refuel from New Jersey. Fuel tanks had to be deballasted to accept fuel as the ship had insufficient to weather the storm. Only 6 survived from Monaghan and 62 from USS Hull

As an aside, the carrier Monterey was nearly taken down by its own aircraft as they crashed into bulkheads and exploded during violent rolls starting a hanger fire.
One of those fighting the fires aboard Monterey was President ( then Lieutenant) Gerald Ford.
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Typhoon Cobra had wind speeds of up to

120 kn120 kn
(62 m/s62 m/s), though some estimates place the gusts even higher at

140 kn140 kn
(72 m/s72 m/s).

Whilst 18 m/s was a 'storm'; as Capt Mäkelä said, it was normal for late September.
 
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JayUtah said:
You said that, but the only evidence on the table was that you asked an AI to solve the problem but didn't disclose that fact. So we'll ask again: show us the "online calculator" you used.


Of course I don't think you worked it out by yourself.


What parameters did it prompt you for?
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All the specifications listed in Wiki. Plus a few prompts of its own. No good deed goes unpunished.
 
Vixen said:
Brits recognise fellow Brits.
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What a pathetic non-answer!

You have demonstrated in your previous posts on this issue that you don’t actually know what it is that makes someone a cockney. You make all the standard errors made by people who don’t really know, but make assumptions based on popular culture.

So I ask again, how do you know that he was a “real” cockney?
 
Vixen said:
I don't know.
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That's not good enough.

You insinuated that you had solved the hydrodynamic drag problem for the sinking MS Estonia. You claim to have used an "online calculator" that you can neither name nor recall. You claim it prompted you for parameters that you refuse to name. The answer you say it gave you has absolutely nothing to do with hydrodynamic drag. Further, it is exactly what would be produced by an LLM AI when inexpertly asked to solve a problem in hydrodynamic drag, using lay terms instead of proper technical terms.

Vixen said:
I didn't think it was important.
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False. You suggested that the answer you produced using your "online calculator" put to rest the objections of your critics once and for all. Now that it is clearly important, please reproduce your method for us now.

Vixen said:
Like an f/x rate query or z-tables, I wasn't able to find the addy in my browsing history, given it was a standard formula.
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Please write down here for us now that "standard formula."
 
JayUtah said:
That's not good enough.

You insinuated that you had solved the hydrodynamic drag problem for the sinking MS Estonia. You claim to have used an "online calculator" that you can neither name nor recall. You claim it prompted you for parameters that you refuse to name. The answer you say it gave you has absolutely nothing to do with hydrodynamic drag. Further, it is exactly what would be produced by an LLM AI when inexpertly asked to solve a problem in hydrodynamic drag, using lay terms instead of proper technical terms.


False. You suggested that the answer you produced using your "online calculator" put to rest the objections of your critics once and for all. Now that it is clearly important, please reproduce your method for us now.


Please write down here for us now that "standard formula."
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As I recall, I think it prompted the gravity bit and included it.
 
Vixen said:
You've been watching too much television. Alf Garnett, Fletcher and Del Boy are your caricature stereotypes..
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For the record, neither Fletch nor Del Boy were meant to be cockney, Fletch was from Haringey, and Del Boy from Peckham. As such their portrayals (in terms of accent and dialect) were pretty accurate, if rather toned down.

Alf Garnett was meant to be a cockney, and interestingly was played by Warren Mitchell and written by Johnny Speight, both of whom were from the right part of London to be able to get the dialogue spot on, although once again, rather toned down for national consumption.
 
wollery said:
What a pathetic non-answer!

You have demonstrated in your previous posts on this issue that you don’t actually know what it is that makes someone a cockney. You make all the standard errors made by people who don’t really know, but make assumptions based on popular culture.

So I ask again, how do you know that he was a “real” cockney?
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As soon as one Brit opens his mouth another Brit has him placed. I know he was a cockney because he said it was cockney slang and that is how he and his chums spoke to one another. So if I said I met a Brummie the other day, saying 'Gard-ing' a la Jasper Carrot for 'garden' is it reasonable to insist I am a liar?
 
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