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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Mojo said:
Is this book your source for the claim that the JAIC said a ship would float on its superstructure?
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It refers to the JAIC claim in its part-report, 1995, which was a technical report. According to Bjorkman it does not explain (at 1.12.5, 2.16 and 5.5) how the vessel could have floated on its side with water on the car deck. He infers there was no water on the car deck prior to the sinking and that the car ramp door was only partly open (contrary to the opinion of the German Group of Experts and JAIC ). BUT a couple of Estonian athletes claimed they managed to climb down the car ramp door via the port side (now horizontal) to get to a life raft in the sea. Also, early divers couldn't access the car garage via this route. He claims it failed to carry out stability and righting arm calculations before issuing said report.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
What do you think open minded means?
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According to someone I follow of Quora:

To be an original thinker requires IQ higher than 130 and intuition. The most likely original thinkers are the NTs and NFs on Myers-Briggs typification. Both high IQ and intuition are rare. https://qr.ae/pCo6jb
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That is her view. My view is that to be objective, you have to have an understanding of what stands in its way.
 
Vixen said:
According to someone I follow of Quora:



That is her view. My view is that to be objective, you have to have an understanding of what stands in its way.
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Gibberish that doesn't answer the question I asked.

What do you think open minded means?


Oh and also Myers-Briggs is pseudoscience nonsense.
 
Vixen said:
It refers to the JAIC claim in its part-report, 1995, which was a technical report. According to Bjorkman it does not explain (at 1.12.5, 2.16 and 5.5) how the vessel could have floated on its side with water on the car deck.
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Is that this report?
estonia1994.ee

Part-report of the Joint Accident Investigation Committee (JAIC)

Part-Report of the Joint Accident Investigation Committee (JAIC), concerning technical issues on the capsizing on 28 September 1994 in the Baltic Sea of the M/S Estonia
estonia1994.ee estonia1994.ee

Are those chapters I'm support to find in that report? Could you show where I can find the JAIC claim, and exactly what it is?
 
Here_to_learn said:
Some time ago there was a discussion about the JAIC report not naming the involved people (crew, passengers).

On the Swedish Accident investigation Authority home page it's possible to search for old reports. I found 27 published reports (in Swedish) before year 2000. I have checked a random selection of 9 of them - not a single one of them names those involved. Instead they are referred to by their title/role.

From my random selection, it seems to be to be a standard procedure in Swedish accident reports not to name those involved. For this reason I do not see that the Estonian JAIC report is an anomaly.
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Or, alternatively because it wasn't sure. The JAIC assumes the three bodies on the bridge were First |Officer Juhan Herma, Second Officer Tormi Ainsalu, and Fourth Officer Kaimar Kikas. (We know for sure Third Officer Andres Tammes managed to escape the bridge and his body recovered from the sea.) So what has happened to the Master Andresson and Second Officer Peeter Kannusaar...? (NB There were two second officers.)

It is claimed the diving teams never checked the identities of the bodies on the bridge. How credible is that? (Of course they must have.) It only uses the testimonies of Third Engineer Treu and Watchman Linde. Problem is, Linde changed his story and was witnessed being seen in a bar instead of patrolling, so how much weight can we give the narrative, especially as Linde was later sentenced to nine years imprisonment for drug smuggling?
 
Let's see how we ended up here...

You said:
Vixen said:
Yes very generic. Treated as random anecdotes, which of course, it had to include some, excerpts collated by the psychologist. Doesn't give any weight to them. Doesn't even name Treu and Linde, who it does give great weight to.
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So I commented with that there are no names in the JAIC report, and asked you why you think that is important.
Here_to_learn said:
No, the JAIC report doesn't name participants. Why should they? Does their first and last name matter? Did their names impact the accident in any way?

When you write accident investigation report, do you always name everybody?
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You did not answer the question, instead you pointed to a different report, written in a different country.
Vixen said:
See the report on the Herald of Free Enterprise. Names named.
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So I spent some time actually checking for reports, created by the Swedish accident investigation authority, about the same time.
Here_to_learn said:
Some time ago there was a discussion about the JAIC report not naming the involved people (crew, passengers).

On the Swedish Accident investigation Authority home page it's possible to search for old reports. I found 27 published reports (in Swedish) before year 2000. I have checked a random selection of 9 of them - not a single one of them names those involved. Instead they are referred to by their title/role.

From my random selection, it seems to be to be a standard procedure in Swedish accident reports not to name those involved. For this reason I do not see that the Estonian JAIC report is an anomaly.
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To that, you answer:
Vixen said:
Or, alternatively because it wasn't sure. The JAIC assumes the three bodies on the bridge were First |Officer Juhan Herma, Second Officer Tormi Ainsalu, and Fourth Officer Kaimar Kikas. (We know for sure Third Officer Andres Tammes managed to escape the bridge and his body recovered from the sea.) So what has happened to the Master Andresson and Second Officer Peeter Kannusaar...? (NB There were two second officers.)

It is claimed the diving teams never checked the identities of the bodies on the bridge. How credible is that? (Of course they must have.) It only uses the testimonies of Third Engineer Treu and Watchman Linde. Problem is, Linde changed his story and was witnessed being seen in a bar instead of patrolling, so how much weight can we give the narrative, especially as Linde was later sentenced to nine years imprisonment for drug smuggling?
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I've shown that is is not standard practice to name persons in Swedish accident reports. Your spin does not make sense.
 
Vixen said:
It is claimed the diving teams never checked the identities of the bodies on the bridge. How credible is that? (Of course they must have.)
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As has been shown several times, that was not their mission - they were not tasked to do that. So it is very credible. We have documentation on what they were tasked to do, and that they didn't do it (That is - tried to identify victims). You claim does not have any supporting evidence at all.

Also, I posted this just a short time ago.

Here_to_learn said:
Regarding identifying the bodies found on the bridge, the following is an excerpt from chapter 4.4.1 in the Rockwater survey report, available here: https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/ES001310_00015#?cv=14&xywh=-3210,-1,8934,3498 (Registration needed).

My conclusions - identifying the bodies found on the bridge could have been challenging. (And as we know, that was not part of the mission for the dives.)

CONTENT WARNING - DISTURBING MATERIAL. I've put the text in a spoiler since the description is disturbing.
With the exception of the bodies found on the bridge and some of those found in the central stairwell on level 5, the bodies were intact and firm with the sex of the victim easily identifiable. The bodies on the bridge were more badly decomposed though were also intact. Some of the bodies on Deck 5 at the central stairwell were bloated and buoyant, the remainder were effectively neutral. Many of the bodies exhibited evidence of crush injuries.
(Any errors in the text are probably mine...)
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ETA: A clarification about what they didn't do...
 
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Here_to_learn said:
Let's see how we ended up here...

You said:


So I commented with that there are no names in the JAIC report, and asked you why you think that is important.

You did not answer the question, instead you pointed to a different report, written in a different country.

So I spent some time actually checking for reports, created by the Swedish accident investigation authority, about the same time.


To that, you answer:


I've shown that is is not standard practice to name persons in Swedish accident reports. Your spin does not make sense.
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The Head of the Commission was Estonian, not Swedish. Publishing it in Swedish was a courtesy and nothing to do with Swedish privacy laws.
 
Here_to_learn said:
As has been shown several times, that was not their mission - they were not tasked to do that. So it is very credible. We have documentation on what they were tasked to do, and that they didn't do it (That is - tried to identify victims). You claim does not have any supporting evidence at all.

Also, I posted this just a short time ago.



ETA: A clarification about what they didn't do...
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As mentioned re the bodies on the bridge they would have been identifiable visually by their uniform. Stripes and all that. Tash, build, height.

1763302145763.png
 
Here_to_learn said:
So show us that Estonia used to publish names in their reports, but made an exception in the case of this report.
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You made the claim that no-one was named because that's the Swedish way, so the onus is on you to show that this is the reason we are not told who was responsible for what by name. It's very silly the idea that 'The captain can't be named because... Swedish privacy laws'. It's ridiculous.
 
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