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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

When I joined the forum almost 22 years ago I picked a username that reflect my reason for spending time here. I'm glad to see that the community here still delivers. Thank you JayUtah.
You're welcome. I found these topics fascinating enough to make it part of my life's work. It's a pleasure and a duty to pass that information on to whoever needs it. Therefore I also made it part of my life's work to teach new engineers. And there's a duty to correct misinformation, especially when it's being used for questionable purposes. There are still quite a few of us left who have fun keeping the E in ISF.
 
The couple of strong waves is what started the sequence of events of the visor falling off and opening the car ramp door with it to allow a huge ingress of seawater.
Not according to the passage you quoted, which says that the failure sequence started somewhere around 5 minutes before your "couple of strong waves" caused the locks and hinges to fail fully. Didn't you read it?
 
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At Yankee Stadium, in the late 1950s, someone in the stands yelled at Al Kaline: "You're not half as good as Mickey Mantle!"

Kaline's classy response was classic: "No one is half as good as Mickey Mantle."

I love that. Taken literally, it says Mickey Mantle himself was not half as good as Mickey Mantle, which speaks to how we create myths portraying even the greatest as still greater than they are. But I'm sure that wasn't what Kaline was saying.

No one is half as bad as Dan Brown. But you've got us off to a great start. If we keep trying, we'll give Dan Brown some serious competition.
l'll take Dan's paycheck any day.

Honestly, Vixen's story would be more believable if it had alien bodies, or werewolves, or alien werewolves in the car deck. Go big or go home.

Instead we've had phantom Russian submarines, Swedish submarines, Spetznaz, the CIA, MI6, KGB/FSB operatives, phantom explosive charges on the bow visor (obviously would be used in WTC-7 later), Bill Clinton, and "stolen Russian technology" headed to a country whose technology has always been ahead of the Russians. Oh, and "Swedish Midnight". It's like AI got drunk and wrote a conspiracy theory.
 
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One of the factors cited is the poor fit of the locking mechanism. This causes dynamic "hammering" action that is reduced or eliminated in a properly constructed and maintained mechanism. The difference between a well-fitting bolt pressing on a lug and a poorly-fitting bolt hammering a lug is night and day. Even if the visor had not failed, the hammering behavior on the ship should have been a cause for extreme concern. And in the hypothetical case where the visor simply fell off for no readily apparent reason, that hammering would be just as much a contributing cause—i.e., for the damage done to the lug—as in the more dramatic case that actually happened.

Conflating causal analysis with the identification of a precipitating event is an elementary error.
Not being technically gifted, whenever I read an accident report I start at the end with the conclusions, and the recommendations before digging into the main body of the report. The engineering aspects are usually over my head, but I can understand the report better after reading the list of things that the report suggest need to be fixed, upgraded, or overhauled. The JAIC spells out all the elements that contributed to the sinking in their recommendations in an easy-to-understand format. The bottom line was the Estonia was not built for open ocean transit, the shipping companies were doing the bare minimum in maintenance and upkeep, minimum training standards for the crew, ineffective damage control, crappy lifeboats, the whole EPERB thing, and a captain whole put the schedule ahead of safe transit.

It's not rocket science. The Estonia should never have sailed in that weather.
 
It's always amusing when you try to Vixensplain other people's professions to them.

A precipitating event is part of a failure sequence. It is not the entire failure sequence, and differs very importantly from root cause analysis. In forensic engineering, a precipitating event has a precise definition: a point in the causal chain after which failure of a particular nature and degree becomes inevitable. For example, if you define failure as a ship foundering, the precipitating event is the point at which buoyancy becomes negative. If you define failure as a hull breach, then the environmental factor that first causes water ingress is the precipitating event. Now you can certainly go on to say that water ingress is a contributing cause of loss of buoyancy, but your failure analysis then has to be more nuanced in order to put everything correctly in perspective. JAIC offers just such a nuanced analysis. You do not, and your inability to read and understand the JAIC findings is more arrogance than curiosity.

In contrast, root cause analysis puts together all the contributing factors that apply both before and after the precipitating event. Root causes can affect the probability of a precipitating event occurring, such as ongoing maintenance failures that make parts weaker than they should be. Root causes can affect the likelihood of survival or recovery after the precipitating event, such as a failure to maintain emergency equipment or a failure to train crew to deal with emergencies.

The precipitating event in the Apollo 13 accident was the electrical arc that ignited a fire within the oxygen tank. Once that had occurred, overpressure of the tank and subsequent rupture was inevitable. The failure sequence continued for approximately two hours after that, where failure is defined as the loss of oxygen to the point of endangering mission success and human life. A root cause analysis identified design failures, testing failures, and operational failures. It also identified other singular incidents in the failure sequence—the use of heaters to accelerate venting of the oxygen during a pad test a few days earlier.

Your argument presents the straw man that the JAIC's failure sequence is non-credible because the precipitating event and the immediate result are not within the same scale. You argue that it's not credible to say that "one or two strong waves" could be enough to cause the bow visor of an ostensibly well-built, well-operated ship to fail. More insidiously, you insist that this is what your critics believe happened, no matter how much they tell you otherwise. You ignore all the root cause analysis that identifies the important contributing factors and explains why the precipitating event occurred. It did not—as you insinuate—simply happen improbably out of the blue. Your inability to understand failure mode and effects analysis hampers your judgment, sets false expectations, and therefore undermines your criticism. Your critics understand this better than you, and can see how the JAIC report properly identifes both a precipitating event and the relevant contributing factors.

In other words, you need to stay in your lane.


No, that's a simplistic understanding of the terminology.

I said an opening in the upper portion of a ship can be considered a hull breach...


I put that qualification there on purpose. For the purposes of hydrodynamics, a "hull" is only that portion below the waterline. That's because it's the only part of the hull that nominally interacts with the water. For purposes of construction and structural analysis, the "hull" is generally the part of the ship up to and including the weather deck. That's because hulls are built according to one kind of structural design and construction method and superstructures are built entirely differently. There is no One True Definition of a hull and therefore no one true definition of a hull breach.

If you need to compute a flood rate, every opening through which water is entering is considered a breach. The opening that defines a vessel's downflooding angle can be literally anywhere on the ship. For stability, you consider only the fact that the vessel is flooding. This means you need to use a different model than the metacentric height calculation you demonstrated you didn't understand. Finally, the ship's center of buoyancy is computed from the shape of the volume of displaced water regardless of what part of the ship is doing the displacing. Flooding models similarly don't distinguish between the hull as defined for other purposes and any other part of the ship as defined for those other purposes.

In other words, you need to stay in your lane.
At no juncture did I say the JAIC said the two strong waves was the only reason for the sinking. I am afraid deck four is a passenger deck, and remains so. The claim its windows were smashed during the listing is simply a theory to explain the speed of sinking and the need to cling onto a belief the hull was not breached at any stage. In addition, re the Atlantic lock, such deadbolts are extremely effective. In the UK it is commonplace, in addition to an ordinary common or garden lock and key, to place one such bolt across the top of the back door and one at the bottom, and this makes it extremely difficult for an intruder to break in, even by force, So, whilst an ordinary deadlock lock and key can be picked or perhaps a sheet of paper pushed under the door, and an implement used to push the key out to drop onto the paper and pulling it to, thus acquiring said key to open the door from the outside, , The addition of a couple of strategic deadlock bolts makes this an effective waste of time. Thus, it is a puzzle as to why the Swedish investigator team went to enormous trouble to find relevant evidence into the state of the bow and its visor found a key piece of evidence, the Atlantic bolt, but immediately threw it back into the sea. So this piece of evidence could have informed the JAIC engineers of so much. Was it deformed, was it securely actually bolted. How did it fall off, when it was underwater, etcetera, etcetera. The theory about smashed windows was simply introduced to fit the calculations as to how much seawater ingress was needed to (a) capsize the ship, and (b) in that amount of time. Whilst it might be an inspired guess, and who knows it might even be true, But given eyewitness accounts and the visible deformations as per a jagged hole sketched by Brian Braidwood as what was seen in the SS Eagle dive with Gregg Bemis, one has to wonder why a more obvious explanation wasn't investigated. For example, a person or persons forcing the bow visor open or even deliberate sabotage, given the picture in the dive video of what looked like an unignited semtex package, and Braidwood being a British Navy explosives expert, who actually taught the topic at a naval academy, claims he immediately recognised it as such. The issue of whether the windows would have smashed in that manner was never physically reconstructed to the actual specifications of those on the vessel. In addition, the speed and type of sinking is more easily explained by a breach in the hull, which is why it is important to not mix up passenger decks with the hull proper in your terminology.
 
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All that analysis has to be ignored if the goal is to transform the JAIC findings into something that seems improbable and therefore suspicious. If one were genuinely curious, one could learn a lot about failure analysis by asking proper questions and attempting to incorporate the answers into one's understanding. But if one desires to fabricate a conspiracy at all costs, one must cherry-pick a necessary statement of the precipitating event and wrongly pretend that it alone must explain, or be explained by, the accident—and consequently that it fails to do so, suspiciously.

It's bad enough that Vixen understands too little of failure analysis to do it correctly. It's worse when she insists that her critics must hold to the improbable straw-man narrative she's concocted rather than the careful, end-to-end analysis that the JAIC actually performed and wrote about, and which her critics actually believe.
I disagree the Estonian element of the JAIC were trying to transform the JAIC findings into something that seems improbable and therefore suspicious or that the German Group of Experts were conspiracy theorists, as one poster called them. Whilst one can ascribe motives of self-preservation, national honour and denial, IMV their expert input is not lesser than those of Sweden and Finland. In addition, the Estonians were not allowed to see the full dive tapes, or they were heavily edited. I don't see what the problem is with transparency. US company Halliburton who sponsored the Rockwell dives claim the original video tapes were destroyed but they were subcontracted to report to the Swedish government. not the JAIC. It is difficult to see how the JAIC can effectively investigate when it was not given all of the evidence, yet some guys in the USA did get to see the entire video tapes and to be able to edit them without being answerable to the formally instituted JAIC. So whilst you and the man in the street sees this as all normal, I can see why the Estonians were dissatisfied and lobbied for a new expedition and investigation.
 
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Hmmm. You're utterly wrong (of course): nearly all modern passenger-carrying ships have multiple decks within the hull.

Oh and that last bullet point starting "Hull: The hull is....". That reads VERY suspiciously like an AI attempt at answering a loaded question placed to it by you. You need to come clean on your use of AI (and you've been asked to do so several times already).
I am sorry to hear you didn't know what a hull was and how it is defined.

Here's a fuller wiki explanation for you:

A hull is the watertight body of a ship, boat, submarine, or flying boat. The hull may open at the top (such as a dinghy), or it may be fully or partially covered with a deck. Atop the deck may be a deckhouse and other superstructures, such as a funnel, derrick, or mast. The line where the hull meets the water surface is called the waterline. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_(watercraft)

Here is a pic of different types of hull.

1762331059529.jpeg

The hull really should not be confused with the passenger decks.
 
I hadn't noticed that because I had my own rebuttal in mind, but good catch. The bullet point seems like it's trying to distinguish the shell plating from the internal structure, which is not the same thing as distinguishing between hull and superstructure as Vixen normally does. And I second the motion to compel Vixen to disclose her use of AI.
Unlike a certain poster my quotations are very clear. In blue and in italics. A common knowledge fact doesn't require anything more.
 
l'll take Dan's paycheck any day.

Honestly, Vixen's story would be more believable if it had alien bodies, or werewolves, or alien werewolves in the car deck. Go big or go home.

Instead we've had phantom Russian submarines, Swedish submarines, Spetznaz, the CIA, MI6, KGB/FSB operatives, phantom explosive charges on the bow visor (obviously would be used in WTC-7 later), Bill Clinton, and "stolen Russian technology" headed to a country whose technology has always been ahead of the Russians. Oh, and "Swedish Midnight". It's like AI got drunk and wrote a conspiracy theory.
It is factual that the (US) Rockwater (UK) divers were looking at a briefcase in Capt Piht's room. It is factual Bill Clinton was POTUS at the time. It is factual the clocks go back at midnight on reaching the Swedish time zone. Eyewitnesses say they were in the process of doing this when the extreme lurch happened. I am not sure what it is that you have a problem with. I started the thread when I saw that Henry Evertsson, film maker and journalist brought out a documentary series about how his expedition to the wreck revealed a massive hole in the hull, which had never been mentioned by the JAIC. This revelation led to an agreement between the Estonians, Swedes and Finns to reinvestigate the finding. The Estonian contingent pressing for a reinvestigation includes the Estonian Minister for Justice, Margus Kurm, and another guy who claims in Evertsson's documentary to have seen something moving away int he water is a diplomat. My interest in what is a local issue for me seems to have caused a lot of uncontrollable rage in certain quarters, with a demand the topic should be censored. I've been told that eye witness accounts are worthless. Sorry if it upsets anyone but I happen to disagree. My opinions are carefully considered. It's weird some menacing guy waving a fist in my face thinks I am going to be forced into dropping my interest in the case as if it is just a tidbit picked up from the 'down the pub' or the SUN newspaper because presumably that is their own standard.
 
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... The claim its windows were smashed during the listing is simply a theory to explain the speed of sinking and the need to cling onto a belief the hull was not breached at any stage.

"Simply a theory" like gravity.

I snipped just this little bit as it illustrates your continuing and completely unjustified insistence on assigning underhand motives to the investigators.

Their "need" to "cling to a belief" indeed! No, Vixen. The windows failing as they dipped low enough to be exposed to the pounding of the sea is an entirely reasonable expectation for what would have happened.

The extra multiple tons of water per second which that would have allowed to contribute to the flooding of the hull is a perfectly logical explanation for the rate of flooding which actually happened.

It doesn't matter if you wish to insist, Cnut-like, that the water may not come into the hull that way as, akshully, that's not usually described as part of the hull. Guess what? The sea didn't care.

And your weasel-worded final flourish about their believing the hull was not breached "at any stage" is a feeble attempt to make the damage above the ship's waterline caused by the wreck hitting the sea bed appear significant in the sinking. It was not. It was hull damage caused by landing on a rocky outcrop and it only became visible when the wreck shifted. That its discoverer only showed the world the damage and deliberately avoided showing the presence of the rocks which obviously did the damage should give any reasonable person pause. No pause from you, as it suits your purpose to prolong this nonsense.



You are not the victim of this stupid argument. You are its sole perpetrator.
 
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So was that particular quote generated by you prompting an AI bot? A simple yes or no will suffice.
I don't recall. It was the first definition of 'hull' on my browser. Do you (a) dispute this common fact and (b) do you believe wikipedia to be definitive? If yes, to the latter, then be aware the wiki meaning is often first to appear on the browser.
 
"Simply a theory" like gravity.

I snipped just this little bit as it illustrates your continuing and completely unjustified insistence on assigning underhand motives to the investigators.

Their "need" to "cling to a belief" indeed! No, Vixen. The windows failing as they dipped low enough to be exposed to the pounding of the sea is an entirely reasonable expectation for what would have happened.

The extra multiple tons of water per second which that would have allowed to contribute to the flooding of the hull is a perfectly logical explanation for the rate of flooding which actually happened.

It doesn't matter if you wish to insist, Cnut-like, that the water may not come into the hull that way as, akshully, that's not usually described as part of the hull. Guess what? The sea didn't care.

And your weasel-worded final flourish about their believing the hull was not breached "at any stage" is a feeble attempt to make the damage above the ship's waterline caused by the wreck hitting the sea bed appear significant in the sinking. It was not. It was hull damage caused by landing on a rocky outcrop and it only became visible when the wreck shifted. That its discoverer only showed the world the damage and deliberately avoided showing the presence of the rocks which obviously did the damage should give any reasonable person pause. No pause from you, as it suits your purpose to prolong this nonsense.



You are not the victim of this stupid argument. You are its sole perpetrator.
I haven't at any stage said the JAIC calculations of amount of ingress need was 'unreasonable' and nor did I say it was not 'logical'. I in fact acknowledged it could well be an inspired one. The point I made is that it was never tested in a real time simulation, that is, using windows to the specifications of those installed in the vessel, to determine whether they would smash under those conditions. Given the accounts of the eyewitnesses (only 137 out of >1,000) about the time, place and type of distress they experienced* I can well understand the Estonians and Germans wanting the accident reinvestigating on Evertsson and earlier, Rabe, Bemis and Braidwood, revealing a massive breach in the hull. I am not sure why anyone is up in arms about it, personally. I have never said the JAIC had 'underhand' motives. In my view, the most likely explanation is that various aspects are 'classified' and thus, they had their hands tied.


*Ovberg, for example, in the lowest passenger cabins below the car deck and in the hull proper, says he experienced the water as rising up from the bottom not flowing down from the car deck.
 
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I haven't at any stage said the JAIC calculations of amount of ingress need was 'unreasonable' and nor did I say it was not 'logical'. I in fact acknowledged it could well be an inspired one. The point I made is that it was never tested in a real time simulation, that is, using windows to the specifications of those installed in the vessel, to determine whether they would smash under those conditions...
Oh. Is that the point you think you made; that they haven't tested those specific windows to see if they can survive immersion in a pounding sea?

Is that the point you think you were making when you said this:
To explain the Estonia, the JAIC had to hypothesize the windows on Deck 4 [iirc] must have smashed, causing ingress onto superstructure, high above the water level.

Don't rewrite history please.
 
Do you always suppose the first thing you Google to to be definitive?
Do you have any reason to think water could not have flooded the Estonia's hull through broken windows on decks 4 and 5?
When it is a simple definition, word spelling or meaning, yes, in my long professional career I can confirm that, yes, I can discern when it is accurate and when it needs more searching.

The waves would have to be pretty high to reach up to deck 5 and smash the windows. The windows in a passenger cruise ferry are designed to withstand high gale force winds so don't just smash like normal windows.
 

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