Here_to_learn
Illuminator
Brilliant. So you could quote the relevant parts where the "a big wave" is shown to knock of the visor?
The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII
- Thread starter Jack by the hedge
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- ms estonia
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
All of this has been discussed at length previously. You have demonstrated that you aren't qualified to discuss comparative ship design, ship stability, ship buoyancy, ship operation, or investigative standards for maritime accidents. These are not subjects upon which you can speak with any notable degree of competency, and the flaws in your opinions have been noted to you many times by people who are appropriately qualified. This goes beyond mere "curiosity" in the subject. You are pretending to be an authority in the field for the purposes of claiming what you think others in the relevant fields have done wrong. No one is obliged to let you get away with this bad behavior again and again and again.
You are not exercising mere "curiosity." Those who reject your ignorant nonsense are not displaying a lack of curiosity. You have spend colossal amounts of time and energy spinning conspiracy theories in a forum where you can very well expect such statements to be challenged. You have roundly rejected all efforts to educate you on points where your knowledge is clearly deficient. Therefore no one is obliged to believe that you are genuinely curious about why the ship sank or how the cause of that sinking was determined by competent authority. And if anyone were curious about what you believe, they have hundreds upon hundreds of pages to learn about it from your incessant, insensible repetition of claims.
Nobody is obliged to take you seriously, to allow you to get away with bad behavior, or to engage in you a manner that requires them to ignore your bad behavior.
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
The fact that you believe the Estonian government's reservations and those of the 'German Group of Experts', led by Werner Hummel, are conspiracy theorists of the same ilk as the anti-covid vaccine crowd shows YOU to be ignorant. Yes, some might believe the Estonians to be 'greasy' foreigners, but I am afraid I am interested in what they have to say and why they say it. Your belief the Estonians and German experts need 'educating' and 'debunking' by people who don't understand the issues is amusing. For example, take the average college student, perhaps masters degree. Intelligence level at about 1 SD above the mean. Now imagine that person wants to discuss politics or something academic with someone one or two SD's lower than themself, say, someone one SD below the mean. Now, the communication is not going to be great as the latter will think the former is talking 'twaddle' because they cannot comprehend that anyone can have an opinion other than what the guys say down the pub, or their favourite tabloid newspaper. Conversely, the average college student finds their level of conversation with the minus one SD guy boring, centering as it probably does around personalities and following the crowd (as per the SUN newspaper). So now imagine someone a couple of SD's above the average college guy. It's again unimaginable to Mr. or Mrs College Average that anyone could possibly be interested in the discussion of ideas or anything of higher intellect. They cannot fathom that there is a bigger picture than their smug world view so they hate the plus two SD guys just as much as they despise the minus one SD guy because they believe that if they find something uninteresting then it is inconceivable to them that anyone else could find it interesting. The fact you and others aren't even aware that perfectly respectable people have questions about the JAIC Report and are certainly nothing at all to do with 'conspiracy theorists' of the popular conception such as the Kennedy guy telling people to stop taking Tylenol tells me that the level of anti-intellectualism is sadly rampant even on supposedly 'skeptic' forums.
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JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
JesseCuster
Master Poster
- Joined
- May 4, 2016
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- 2,159
Tell us about the Atlantic Lock. What do you think about it Vixen? Was it strong, weak, vital, unimportant, etc.?
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
It failed because it was in international waters, not Atlantic waters.
Basically a sparkling lock. . .
Basically a sparkling lock. . .
Axxman300
Philosopher
The only problem with the JAIC is didn't waste resources addressing silly theories raised by delusional people. They raised the bow visor, they surveyed the wreck, they looked at maintenance logs. They did more than they had to. The Estonia was never designed for that kind of weather, and it had key design flaws. The crew did a half-assed damage control assessment. That's it, and it was enough to sink the ship. No sinister conspiracy involved.
junkshop
Otto's Favourite
Disagreeing with you ≠ lack of interest in the topic.
Criticism of your arguments ≠ lack of interest in the topic.
Correcting factual errors in your posts ≠ lack of interest in the topic.
Asking you to provide citations for claims made in your posts ≠ lack of interest in the topic.
Observing that your replies often lack any discernable connection to the quoted posts ≠ lack of interest in the topic.
I eagerly await your irrelevant response.
Dabop
Master Poster
Damn those shipbuilders to hell, damn them
They just HAD to buy the cheap and nasty Atlantic lock, instead of buying the obviously far superior but more expensive Baltic lock!!!!!!
THAT would never have failed....
W.D.Clinger
Philosopher
So long as we're writing fiction...
You've got the start of a serviceable plot there, but you need to punch it up a bit. You need plot twists, esoteric details. Make the protagonist an unreliable first person narrator who stumbles upon the carefully hidden evidence of some great crime. Raise the stakes, make it about some breakthrough in artificial intelligence. No, that's being done to death. Make it about quantum something. Quantum accounting, maybe, where someone has figured out how to cook a superpower's monetary system using spooky action at a distance.
But that's too abstract by itself. The secret should be hidden in a briefcase that went down in a plane crash or something. The narrator is the only one who realizes the plane was shot down by a submarine. No, that's a little over the top. The brief case was in a ship. Not just any ship, but a ship ferrying software that's been made to look like large SUVs.
There's got to be some conflict, danger, intrigue. Maybe the criminals are aware of the protagonist, and trying to discredit him or her by publishing misleading accident reports and poking fun at her mathematical notations. But the narrator is too smart for them. Finally, in desperation, they resort to murder. Stepping out of his or her shower (her shower would probably work better for the movie version), she or he is beginning to think it was all just a peyote dream, but then he or she stumbles over the freshly killed corpse of the ship captain, long thought to have perished in the shipwreck. Law enforcement is pounding on the door, flashing lights and sirens outside. Fade to black.
That's just a rough outline. It might not be good enough for a major publisher or movie studio. But I'd be willing to bet it's good enough for the conspiracy theory section of some soi-dissant skeptics' site.
It's the other way around! Baltic is one of the cheapest properties, while Atlantic is one of the elite yellows, maybe a little expensive to build on but commanding very high rents when developed. To avoid being flipped over the only thing better would have been a Pacific lock or maybe a Pennsylvania lock. Or better yet, when there were heavy seas, the ship should have stayed parked in place beside a boardwalk.
Dabop
Master Poster
Of course in the eyes of one poster, they should have all gone to jail, gone directly to jail, they shouldn't have passed go, or collected $200.....
junkshop
Otto's Favourite
Fun as it is, feeding time is over for today. I'm off to my bed. Tatty-bye!
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Look, my point is that the beaver is a symbol of Canada, and the Estonia was doomed because they didn't bother having a ship's beaver on board.
[/sarcasm]
[/sarcasm]
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Heh, you are no Dan Brown. You need to include some symbology, perhaps a slide rule and compass, or better still a sextant and telescope with a few codes thrown in. Perhaps JackbytheHedge can help you with the spy thriller stuff. He's good at that.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Chapter 20 Findings:
What is it about: "one or two wave impact loads" people are not understanding? The JAIC spell it out large that the cause of the accident was a couple of large waves.
Here_to_learn
Illuminator
Ah, you see, you are missing the point of the word "fully" in that sentence. In fact, that is spelled out by the previous bullet point, where it mentions a "failure sequence". That failure sequence is described in detail in previous chapters, most specifically in 13.5. But chapters 12 and 15 also contains calculations and simulation for the sequence that led to the final failure.
The straw that broke the camel's back comes to mind...
So you are wrong in your claim that this is what JAIC claim is the cause of the accident.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
I'm leaving the "Failure" heading in the quote because it's apt. You highlight half of JAIC's findings about the failure sequence and completely ignore the other part. The failure sequence took five minutes to run. There is ample testimony of large bangs. This was determined to be the loosened bow visor banging up and down, as was confirmed by examining the actual equipment. This is why lay people shouldn't try to interpret forensic engineering investigations.
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
The Atlantic Lock being an accessory, if you like, to the hydraulic locking system of the bow visor (which, as you know, rises up to allow cars to drive into the 'car ramp' via the car ramp door, and once in is lowered), with the Atlantic Lock being an extra level security, so thus, not strictly speaking vital, albeit important, as an extra security feature. For example, that extra belt or lock on your suticase you don't really need, or the childproof locks on your car.
Positioning:
What it looks like:
How it fits into the forepeak deck:
In effect, there are three locking steps:
Sequence of locking failure:
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Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
The couple of strong waves is what started the sequence of events of the visor falling off and opening the car ramp door with it to allow a huge ingress of seawater. However, the calculated area of water to fill the car ramp is not enough to capsize the vessel so a further stage needed to be added by the JAIC of having the fourth deck windows smashed by the waves on the listing starboard side, and that is how it theorizes suffcient water ingressed to make the whole thing sink like a stone within an incredibly fast half an hour or so, given the hypothesis there was no breach in the hull.
