Why do you need to stipulate? The Supreme Court judgement was on an actual case where the Scottish Government in an Act had defined woman as including
ie transwomen
Supreme Court judgement
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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
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Supreme Court judgement
Rolfe
Adult human female
I apologise for coming back to this yet again, but the sheer obtuseness of the question fascinates me. This person is stated to be a woman. So, on what grounds has she been classified as "woman", if not on the basis of her chromosomes? It would seem, on the same grounds as all women are classified as women, by having a female body. The statement is circular, in that it assumes some other way to classify woman or man which is not XX/XY, and then asks us, but is this other way wrong?
No, it isn't. We all know what a woman is, and that some of them do indeed have XY chromosomes. What was your point again, caller?
It's often at this point that the TRAs will trot out a couple of their favourite papers about weird DSDs. One is a study of several members of a family which is notable for throwing up strange anomalies in this department. (One wonders how inbred they are, going back.) The striking thing about the paper is that the authors are in no doubt about who is a woman and who is a man. Their interest is purely in the bizarre genetics. They are not saying, this person who has given birth to a couple of children is not a woman! Merely that this woman has a very strange cellular makeup. It's simply the TRAs who have run with this notion that these obviously phenotypically male or female people aren't male or female because of atypical X and Y chromosome complements.
The other paper is about a single individual, a man who I believe had fathered children, who was discovered to have some ovarian tissue. Only the abstract is available, but there are some strange claims there. First there is the claim that this tissue showed signs of having ovulated. Frankly I don't believe them. You need a complex, highly regulated endocrine system for that to occur, a female one, and a male doesn't have that. Second, they claimed that this person could potentially have gestated a foetus of his own. Er, what it? He's a man. He can't have a uterus. Or pretty much any of the complicated plumbing necessary to get sperm to ovum and then ovum from ovary to uterus. So I don't know the detail of what's in the paper but the abstract sounds as if it was written by a nutcase.
Once again, though, there was no doubt about this person's sex. He was a man. He had impregnated a woman. Every one knew he was a man.
Yes, it is. Every human being, every mammal every born, is either male or female. You can say, if the body developed down the Wolffian pathway it is male and if it developed down the Müllerian pathway it is female. That works fine. Or you can say, have both functional SRY gene and functioning androgen receptors, male, lack one or the other and female. Comes to the same thing in the end.
But you know what? IT DOESN'T MATTER!
There is absolutely no way in logic you can get from "there are a tiny number of people who have medical disorders that make them rather more difficult than usual to classify as male or female" to "therefore perfectly normal males should have the right to claim to be female and make use of all the facilities set aside for females." Trans-identifying men are, to several decimal places of certainty, phenotypically and genotypically normal men. We have no difficulty in identifying this. XY chromosomes, androgen sensitivity, Wolffian reproductive tract, production of sperm and so on. That some people are trying to claim that the existence of rare chromosomal anomalies means that these people can't be unambiguously classified as male and must be allowed to claim that they're female and invade women's spaces speaks to nothing but desperation and the lack of any actual valid arguments.
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Not really, no. There's mounting evidence that the kind of men who demand access to women's spaces whether women like it or not are much more likely to be exactly the kind of worse men who shouldn't have the privilege.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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This trans panic always cracks me up. Just how often does anyone use a public bathroom? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week Or maybe every day. How often have they encountered someone they knew to be of the opposite sex in the bathroom? And why does it really matter? Not only is it likely to be extremely rare, stalls are almost universally private. How much time does anyone spend in a public bathroom?
Don't you do your business and leave?
Seriously, in the scheme of things, this problem isn't a problem. It is insignificant compared to how bent out of much people get their panties in a twist.
Don't you do your business and leave?
Seriously, in the scheme of things, this problem isn't a problem. It is insignificant compared to how bent out of much people get their panties in a twist.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Says a man.
How often do some girls play sports? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week Or maybe every day. How often do they find themselves competing against someone of the opposite sex? And what does it really matter? Not only is it likely to be extremely rare, how much time does anyone spend playing sports?
There are six players in a volleyball team. So twelve players on the court. In this competitive match there were five males and only seven females.
Soon girls will spend no time at all playing sports, because all the teams will be composed of cosplaying males.
How often do some girls play sports? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week Or maybe every day. How often do they find themselves competing against someone of the opposite sex? And what does it really matter? Not only is it likely to be extremely rare, how much time does anyone spend playing sports?
There are six players in a volleyball team. So twelve players on the court. In this competitive match there were five males and only seven females.
Soon girls will spend no time at all playing sports, because all the teams will be composed of cosplaying males.
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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What difference does that make?
Says a human being who rarely uses a public bathroom. And where the only times in almost 70 years has only encountered those situations in bars. And even then, they were almost all gay bars. And not once did I freak out.
There are lots of real problems facing society. Climate change, poverty, health care, war, violence, and others. And the girl you felt sure was a guy used the stall next to yours three years ago consumes you?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Indeed. These are two dots that TRAs are desperate to join, but reality prevents prevents them from doing so.
Rolfe
Adult human female
You might read the edited post. It's not only about public bathrooms, important though these are.
You may not have the imagination to understand how women use public bathrooms, in a very different way from men, but this has been explained numerous times in the thread. You're a man who seldom uses public bathrooms, lecturing women who may use them often about what they should care about. You didn't freak out. Bully for you. You are not the only person in the world.
And now we move on to yet another favourite deflection. How dare you worry about this thing when there are other things wrong in the world. Grow up. If you can't multi-task, women certainly can.
And then again the insulting and belittling language. "... consumes you..." as if to imply an unhealthy obsession. Hysteria, maybe?
Can't you find some approach, even some insult, that isn't at least old enough to vote?
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
Then why are trans identifying men so obsessed with using the ladies? Why can't they just go into a private stall in the gents, do their business and leave? If expecting women to share facilities with males is no big deal, why is expecting transwomen to do so totally unacceptable?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
This TRA hypocrisy always cracks me up.
Apparently, TRAs think transgender identified males are such fragile little snowflakes, they couldn't possibly share toilet facilities with men, but those very same TRAs have no problem with forcing women to share toilet facilities with men.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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Safety. Testosterone laden men have a significant history of violence against women.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Now you're beginning to get it. Trans-identifying men are men, testosterone-laden men for the most part, and those that aren't currently testosterone-laden have been in the past and may be so again. That is probably the #1 reason why women don't want them in their personal spaces.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I like to post this every once and awhile as it seems to address the debate most perfectly.
He's so concerned about the (entirely hypothetical) danger to hulking great men in dresses from hulking great men in normal clothes that he thinks it's entirely right to force women to accept hulking great men into their spaces, in dresses or not, it doesn't matter, there's no "right" way to be a "transwoman".
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
This what he doesn't seem to get though.
The transgender identified males who, often violently, demand they be allowed access to women's spaces are PRECISELY the types of males that need to be kept out of women's spaces. When they show you exactly who they are.... believe them!
The good men stay out so that the bad men stand out...
Rolfe
Adult human female
I'm seeing ostriches with their heads buried in the sand. I'm seeing Nelson with his telescope to his blind eye. I'm seeing arguments (if you can call them that) based on a premise so false it's laughable, but which will never be given up or even questioned. No matter how large and fruitful the cherry orchard.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Oh, you've actually been looking into the typical behaviour of trans-identifying men then? Welcome to our world.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
If that is what you see, then you are looking through glasses tinted with your own biases, prejudices and premeditated conclusions.
I believe that gays, lesbians, non-binary and transgender people must be granted the same rights granted to every other person in society, with the proviso that such rights shall not abrogate or transgress the existing rights of others. That means they must not be discriminated against with regards to employment, housing or freedom of speech. They ought to be allowed to dress however they wish, love whoever loves them back and express themselves in any way they like.
At the end of the day, however they are men... biological males - this is a 100% irrefutable, observable, biological, medical and scientific fact. Along with men, I consider it perfectly acceptable to positively discriminate in favour of women, and keep all men out of women's spaces.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
What I want to know is: if some males are not safe in the company of other males, why is that women's problem to solve? Especially when the "solution" puts them in danger from males?
And even if it was only males who take female hormones we were expected to welcome into what were previously female only spaces (which of course it isn't), they are still far more "testosterone laden" than females and therefore, by his own admission, a danger to them.