Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Pixel42]

There have been many societies throughout history that have had more than two genders.

There have been no societies throughout history that have had more than two sexes.

Gender is a social construction as are laws and regulations. If we are to create such laws and regulations, we must define terms.

It's precisely because 'gender' is essentially meaningless that such laws and regulations must be based on sex.

There are observable biological differences between males and females which significantly affect the way in which they live their lives. No woman can ever know what it's like to "live their life as a man" because they are biologically female. No man can ever know what it's like to "live their life as a woman" because they are biologically male. Reality cannot be changed by the thoughts in someone's head.

 

[smartcooky]

True.

Do we pull out the chart in the bathroom?

Oh FFS stop being so bloody obtuse.

 

[acbytesla]

There have been no societies throughout history that have had more than two sexes.

I said genders.

It's precisely because 'gender' is essentially meaningless that such laws and regulations must be based on sex.

But they never have been

There are observable biological differences between males and females which significantly affect the way in which they live their lives. No woman can ever know what it's like to "live their life as a man" because they are biologically female. No man can ever know what it's like to "live their life as a woman" because they are biologically male. Reality cannot be changed by the thoughts in someone's head.

Sex is not binary. There are exceptions to every factor you might use.

 

[acbytesla]

Oh FFS stop being so bloody obtuse.

No, you're the one oversimplifying. That in my view is being obtuse.

But thanks, it's interesting how easily hate can be wound up so easily.

 

[Rolfe]

Still haven't answered the question. Is she a he? Or is he a she?

I know you don't have me on ignore, but are you actually reading my posts?

You just said she was a woman. I think that answers your question.

The answer is in the question. She's a woman. She's a she. You (correctly) presuppose this. It is not necessary to have XX chromosomes to be a woman. I and others have repeatedly explained this.

If you can't define it, how do you regulate it? Are their exceptions for intersex people? And what Intersex conditions qualify? Is every person who has a penis a man? Is every person with a vagina a woman? What if they have both? Or do we define by hormone levels like they do in certain sports? Or do we define by chromosomes? What if your skin, teeth have XX chromosomes and your blood has XY chromosomes?

But we can define it. Again, please read my posts.

If you have both a functional SRY gene and functioning androgen receptors, you're male. If you have (typically) no functional SRY gene, or (rarely) no functioning androgen receptors, you're female. That's for eligibility to compete in sporting events, but it aligns pretty perfectly with the actualite.

This isn't abstract. It's how people line up when you apply the simple "eyes and ears" test. Human beings are very very good at discerning the sex of other adult human beings, unsurprisingly. (And pretty good with children too.) Women are better at it than men, but even men are very good, especially if the person isn't making a huge effort to deceive. And when you check the genetic make-up of people, that's how they split. Even strange mosaic cases resolve in that way.

 

[Rolfe]

No, you're the one oversimplifying. That in my view is being obtuse.

But thanks, it's interesting how easily hate can be wound up so easily.

Resorting to accusations of "hate" is the last refuge of those who are losing this argument. Keeping males out of female categories is not hate.

 

[acbytesla]

I know you don't have me on ignore, but are you actually reading my posts?



The answer is in the question. She's a woman. She's a she. You (correctly) presuppose this. It is not necessary to have XX chromosomes to be a woman. I and others have repeatedly explained this.



But we can define it. Again, please read my posts.



This isn't abstract. It's how people line up when you apply the simple "eyes and ears" test. Human beings are very very good at discerning the sex of other adult human beings, unsurprisingly. (And pretty good with children too.) Women are better at it than men, but even men are very good, especially if the person isn't making a huge effort to deceive. And when you check the genetic make-up of people, that's how they split. Even strange mosaic cases resolve in that way.

You're right, I don't have you on ignore. I'm sorry that I overlooked your posts. That was not my intent.
I'm sorry, I don't see it that simple. And I simply don't care about putting people in boxes. I find it inherently unkind and inhumane. In a world of problems, this is pathetically minor. And yet some individuals will give away a kind and civilized society to defend a hill of unkindness.

I can't stand the hate. So I must troll this thread from time to time.

 

[smartcooky]

Of course it has something to do with it. It is the foundation for the hate that many have regarding sexuality outside their comfort zone.

I'm an atheist - have been ever since I was a young teenager. So how do you account for your perception that I am a transphobe?

Would you like to know why I take the position I do? I'll tell you why anyway...

First, the Basis: Sex is binary. This an observable, irrefutable, scientific reality. ALL mammals (including ALL humans) are without exception, either male or female, there is no "in between sex", there is no third or fourth or fifth sex.
I steadfastly REFUSE to deny observable, scientific reality - on principle - and I certainly refuse to do so for the sake of a few self-entitled men labouring under the mental delusion that they are opposite of the sex they were born.

Second, the Impact: Denying scientific reality in this case leads directly to negative impacts on more than 50% of the population. ALL women (even those who don't yet realise it) will be impacted negatively if transgender identified males are permitted to be granted women's rights. Our mothers, grandmothers and in some cases, great grandmothers fought a long, hard and sometimes bloody battle to escape the subjugation of males to earn the right to their own self determination and equal treatment with and by their male peers... too long, too hard and too bloody for it all to be thrown away on the altar of the gender ideology cult.

Third, the consequences: We are not just talking about bathrooms here, we are talking about about the right to assemble as a group of women to discuss women's issues such as maternity, pregnancy and safety, and not have men intrude on their gathering and attack them for not including them. (this has happened a lot in the UK, for example, when preganancy help and discussion groups have been set upon by transgender identified males demanding they not be excluded. This happened just a couple of days ago in Brighton, where transactivists trashed a venue that was about to be used for a meeting of feminists.
Consequences also include males trying to force their way into rape crisis centres, women's hospital wards, domestic abuse refuges, women's prisons and women's sports.

Fourth, the personal impact: I have already had my daughters accosted by transgender identified males (well, they claimed they were women but didn't present at all like women) - they used the magic "Self ID invocation" when their presence was challenged - one in a public toilet, the other in the women's changing rooms of a public swimming pool.

But regardless, you asked "How has society gotten so stupid that this could even be a question?" I can think of an innumerable number of examples of our society and others that were far more stupid. Such as, how did society ever get so stupid to believe in the Bible? The Bible has done and continues to do more damage on society than transgender individuals have ever done. Should we outlaw churches?

The Bible might be relevant to the argument about right wing transphobia, but it doesn't account for the atheists (like me) or the increasing numbers of centre-left (like me), moderate left wingers and liberals who are understanding they are on the wrong side of this debate...

There have been many societies throughout history that have had more than two genders.

None have had more than two sexes... ever!

Gender is a social construction as are laws and regulations. If we are to create such laws and regulations, we must define terms.

Gender is meaningless - it has NO scientific basis. As you say, it is merely a social construct - one that is unique to humans... the decision to abrogate the rights of 100% of women MUST be based on a far greater range of considerations that just the thoughts in the heads of a few delusional males.

 

[Rolfe]

You're right, I don't have you on ignore. I'm sorry that I overlooked your posts. That was not my intent.
I'm sorry, I don't see it that simple. And I simply don't care about putting people in boxes. I find it inherently unkind and inhumane. In a world of problems, this is pathetically minor. And yet some individuals will give away a kind and civilized society to defend a hill of unkindness.

I can't stand the hate. So I must troll this thread from time to time.

How about the mountain of unkindness (and indeed actual hate) that's being meted out to women by aggressive entitled men who insist on invading women's private spaces? Because that's actually what's going on. Are you overlooking this the same way you overlooked my posts?

Reality doesn't care whether you care about it or not, it exists regardless. And it is reality that all human beings are  all either male or female, and absent huge efforts to deceive we can tell which sex someone is within seconds of meeting them in person, in fact studies have shown that we usually clock sex even more quickly than we clock race.

The two "boxes" exist, and your super-sensitivity to the desires of some men to jump into the box where they don't belong, to the detriment of those who do belong there, doesn't alter that in the slightest.

And I have no idea why you suddenly started mentioning Christianity. Round here most of the churches are as captured as the police, the schools and the HR departments.

Trolling? You have been comprehensively owned. Again. You know nothing at all about the issues at stake. Dropping in to post nonsensical inaccurate TRA talking points and going away when you get your arse handed to you is probably not a productive use of your time.

 

[acbytesla]

How about the mountain of unkindness (and indeed actual hate) that's being meted out to women by aggressive entitled men who insist on invading women's private spaces? Because that's actually what's going on. Are you overlooking this the same way you overlooked my posts?

Reality doesn't care whether you care about it or not, it exists regardless. And it is reality that all human beings are  all either male or female, and absent huge efforts to deceive we can tell which sex someone is within seconds of meeting them in person, in fact studies have shown that we usually clock sex even more quickly than we clock race.

The two "boxes" exist, and your super-sensitivity to the desires of some men to jump into the box where they don't belong, to the detriment of those who do belong there, doesn't alter that in the slightest.

And I have no idea why you suddenly started mentioning Christianity. Round here most of the churches are as captured as the police, the schools and the HR departments.

Trolling? You have been comprehensively owned. Again. You know nothing at all about the issues at stake. Dropping in to post nonsensical inaccurate TRA talking points and going away when you get your arse handed to you is probably not a productive use of your time.

There are worse men in every bar and church.

 

[Rolfe]

But not in the women's toilets and changing rooms, until your friends decided they should be given free access.

(Actually, experience shows that it is precisely these "worse" men who are now insisting on being treated as women and hounding, harassing and attacking anyone who won't comply. Quelle surprise.)

 

[smartcooky]

Just a wee catch up a couple of the things that have happened as the tide turns against the madness, as things are being slowly rolled back to normality in the UK (My apologies if either of these have been posted previously)

NHS Fife staff told to use toilets based on 'sex at birth'

The health board has changed its policy on the use of single-sex spaces after a warning from the UK equality watchdog.

www.bbc.com

Staff at a health board involved in a legal case over single-sex spaces have now been told to use facilities which correspond with their sex at birth over their gender identity. NHS Fife published an updated policy on the use of changing rooms and toilets after the UK equality watchdog warned it would "enforce" a Supreme Court ruling. A judge is considering the next steps in an employment tribunal brought by nurse Sandie Peggie, who claimed she was treated unfairly by the health board after complaining about sharing facilities with transgender doctor Beth Upton.​

​

The Scottish government said it had written to all health boards to "reinforce the importance of ensuring the law is followed".​

Scottish schools must have separate toilets for boys and girls

The Scottish government has issued new guidance following two landmark court rulings.

www.bbc.com

​

New guidance issued by Holyrood ministers says that facilities must be made available on the basis of biological sex, but that schools can also provide gender neutral toilets.​

​

Schools had previously been told that transgender pupils could use whatever toilets they felt most comfortable in.​

I bet the Teachers' Union and the Scottish ministers will have clutched their pearls in poutrage over this - especially Humza Yousuf.

 

[smartcooky]

There are worse men in every bar and church.

 

[smartcooky]

But not in the women's toilets and changing rooms, until your friends decided they should be given free access.

(Actually, experience shows that it is precisely these "worse" men who are now insisting on being treated as women and hounding, harassing and attacking anyone who won't comply. Quelle surprise.)

Indeed! When they show you exactly who they are... believe them!!

 

[acbytesla]

Just a wee catch up a couple of the things that have happened as the tide turns against the madness, as things are being slowly rolled back to normality in the UK (My apologies if either of these have been posted previously)

NHS Fife staff told to use toilets based on 'sex at birth'

The health board has changed its policy on the use of single-sex spaces after a warning from the UK equality watchdog.

www.bbc.com

Staff at a health board involved in a legal case over single-sex spaces have now been told to use facilities which correspond with their sex at birth over their gender identity. NHS Fife published an updated policy on the use of changing rooms and toilets after the UK equality watchdog warned it would "enforce" a Supreme Court ruling. A judge is considering the next steps in an employment tribunal brought by nurse Sandie Peggie, who claimed she was treated unfairly by the health board after complaining about sharing facilities with transgender doctor Beth Upton.​

​

The Scottish government said it had written to all health boards to "reinforce the importance of ensuring the law is followed".​

Scottish schools must have separate toilets for boys and girls

The Scottish government has issued new guidance following two landmark court rulings.

www.bbc.com

​

New guidance issued by Holyrood ministers says that facilities must be made available on the basis of biological sex, but that schools can also provide gender neutral toilets.​

​

Schools had previously been told that transgender pupils could use whatever toilets they felt most comfortable in.​

I bet the Teachers' Union and the Scottish ministers will have clutched their pearls in poutrage over this - especially Humza Yousuf.

That's politicians for you. They'll embrace any policy regardless or how hateful and awful it is if it is popular. I saw a Republican Presidential debate among the top 8 leading Republican candidates. Not one of them would acknowledge evolution.

 

[Rolfe]

I think the main feature of @acbytesla's posts is an absolute failure to take on board anything anyone says in reply, even to the point of complaining that answered questions have not been answered. No matter what counter-arguments are put to him he just carries straight on with the allegations of hate, with no discernible rational argument.

It's men's rights activism at its purest and most extreme. Give the men everything they want and don't dare push back, ladies. Or else I'll call you unkind and inhumane. And repeatedly accuse you of hate.

 

[Rolfe]

That's politicians for you. They'll embrace any policy regardless or how hateful and awful it is if it is popular. I saw a Republican Presidential debate among the top 8 leading Republican candidates. Not one of them would acknowledge evolution.

Exempla gratia. With added squirrel.

 

[smartcooky]

That's politicians for you. They'll embrace any policy regardless or how hateful and awful it is if it is popular.

These politicians are complying with a Supreme Court ruling. Unlike the USA, in the UK, the governments (no matter what their leaning), even if they don't like it and drag their feet somewhat, will ultimately respect and obey their highest court.

In this case, the UK Supreme Court has done the right thing by following the science!

I saw a Republican Presidential debate among the top 8 leading Republican candidates. Not one of them would acknowledge evolution.

That's religion... it has nothing to do with this debate, here in this thread. I am pretty sure that most of the debaters here defending women's rights to not have men intrude into their spaces, would be atheists and/or agnostics. Its why your arguments invoking the Bible and religions and the cause, fall flat -- every time

 

[Rolfe]

I'm a Christian. As I said, the churches around here are mostly completely captured by the trans cult. Someone told them this was kind and inclusive and they disconnected their brains. One of the things that led to me peaking in 2017 was having to sit through a sermon where the minister urged the case for a trans-identifying man to be housed in a women's prison. Once I realised the sort of people trans-identifying men were, I realised what this entailed.

Most of the "terfs" I know are atheist or agnostic, as it happens.

 

[smartcooky]

I'm a Christian. As I said, the churches around here are mostly completely captured by the trans cult. Someone told them this was kind and inclusive and they disconnected their brains. One of the things that led to me peaking in 2017 was having to sit through a sermon where the minister urged the case for a trans-identifying man to be housed in a women's prison. Once I realised the sort of people trans-identifying men were, I realised what this entailed.

Most of the "terfs" I know are atheist or agnostic, as it happens.

Well @Rolfe your post pretty much rains on @acbytesla's parade!!