Wow, UK has lost freedom of speech

[Darat]

I've said that in the UK we have more freedom of expression than we used to have, not less and that is true. In the past we have had direct and indirect laws that constrained free speech, as well as direct laws. Many of these have been dismantled and repealed over the years. In my lifetime we've gone from new plays requiring a licence to perform to blasphemy laws repealed. I think what is considered freedom of expression and what isn't is a constant tension that should always exist and be challenged. In another thread about free speech I said we need even more robust firewalls between what employees can do and say and employment contracts that restrict an employee's freedom of expression.

Despite the courts continual narrowing of the meaning of broadly worded legislation that seeks to restrict freedom of expression I think we need a review of legislation that deals with freedom of expression from protesting to employment to hate speech and so on.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Doesn't matter. I'm asking if Mein Kampf and his speeches would have been acceptable free speech if they hadn't led to the Holocaust. Would people here be defending his right to have said the things he said?

I say no. They were still monstrous. But notice that you can still buy Mein Kampf on Amazon, so I'm not seeing much suppression right now.

Yes of course, having differing opinions about the jewish question is just politics and protected free speech.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Absent the almost complete collapse of German society and economy, Hitler would have never rose to power.

So really it was the German governments fault for printing money to intentionally cause hyper inflation to get rid of their war debt as they never raised taxes in WWI and paid for the war in bonds. Making those bonds worthless was an intentional policy of the German government.

Honestly you seem to be falling for Nazi apologist BS.

 

[smartcooky]

Many of these have been dismantled and repealed over the years. In my lifetime we've gone from new plays requiring a licence to perform to blasphemy laws repealed.

And yet, 17 years later, here you are...

CPS in fresh attempts to criminalise ‘blasphemy’ 17 years after abolition

Humanists UK has warned that if a man is successfully prosecuted after burning a Quran, it would effectively subvert the will of Parliament and re-establish blasphemy laws in England and Wales by the back door. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) originally charged the man with harassing the...

humanists.uk

Humanists UK has warned that if a man is successfully prosecuted after burning a Quran, it would effectively subvert the will of Parliament and re-establish blasphemy laws in England and Wales by the back door.​

​

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) originally charged the man with harassing the ‘religious institution of Islam’. But after Humanists UK pointed out that the law doesn’t protect religious institutions from harassment, the CPS has now substituted the charge for one of likely causing harassment, alarm, or distress to individuals. Humanists UK believes that in doing so, prosecutors have sought to take a creative approach to the law that seeks to avoid explicit protections for free speech around religion written into the Public Order Act since 2006.​

In effect, the CPS used Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986, to make an end run around the lack of a blasphemy law.

Well in June of this year, the man in question was convicted.

Public disorder conviction for man who burned a Quran

A man who burnt a Quran outside the Turkish Embassy in London has been found guilty of religiously motivated harassment, alarm, or distress by Westminster Magistrates’ Court. He has been ordered to pay a fine of £240 and surcharge of £96. With welcome clarity, the judge said ‘I do not find that...

humanists.uk

Congratulations UK, you now have your blasphemy laws back.

 

[Darat]

And yet, 17 years later, here you are...

...snip...

Well in June of this year, the man in question was convicted.

Public disorder conviction for man who burned a Quran

A man who burnt a Quran outside the Turkish Embassy in London has been found guilty of religiously motivated harassment, alarm, or distress by Westminster Magistrates’ Court. He has been ordered to pay a fine of £240 and surcharge of £96. With welcome clarity, the judge said ‘I do not find that...

humanists.uk

Congratulations UK, you now have your blasphemy laws back.

I think what is considered freedom of expression and what isn't is a constant tension that should always exist and be challenged

Despite the courts continual narrowing of the meaning of broadly worded legislation that seeks to restrict freedom of expression I think we need a review of legislation that deals with freedom of expression from protesting to employment to hate speech and so on.

ETA: Did you read the second article you posted?

 

[GlennB]

And yet, 17 years later, here you are...

CPS in fresh attempts to criminalise ‘blasphemy’ 17 years after abolition

Humanists UK has warned that if a man is successfully prosecuted after burning a Quran, it would effectively subvert the will of Parliament and re-establish blasphemy laws in England and Wales by the back door. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) originally charged the man with harassing the...

humanists.uk

Humanists UK has warned that if a man is successfully prosecuted after burning a Quran, it would effectively subvert the will of Parliament and re-establish blasphemy laws in England and Wales by the back door.​

​

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) originally charged the man with harassing the ‘religious institution of Islam’. But after Humanists UK pointed out that the law doesn’t protect religious institutions from harassment, the CPS has now substituted the charge for one of likely causing harassment, alarm, or distress to individuals. Humanists UK believes that in doing so, prosecutors have sought to take a creative approach to the law that seeks to avoid explicit protections for free speech around religion written into the Public Order Act since 2006.​

In effect, the CPS used Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986, to make an end run around the lack of a blasphemy law.

Well in June of this year, the man in question was convicted.

Public disorder conviction for man who burned a Quran

A man who burnt a Quran outside the Turkish Embassy in London has been found guilty of religiously motivated harassment, alarm, or distress by Westminster Magistrates’ Court. He has been ordered to pay a fine of £240 and surcharge of £96. With welcome clarity, the judge said ‘I do not find that...

humanists.uk

Congratulations UK, you now have your blasphemy laws back.

".... the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk."

My highlight

 

[smartcooky]

I think what is considered freedom of expression and what isn't is a constant tension that should always exist and be challenged

Despite the courts continual narrowing of the meaning of broadly worded legislation that seeks to restrict freedom of expression I think we need a review of legislation that deals with freedom of expression from protesting to employment to hate speech and so on.

ETA: Did you read the second article you posted?

Yup. what's your point

 

[Darat]

Yup. what's your point

I think what is considered freedom of expression and what isn't is a constant tension that should always exist and be challenged

Despite the courts continual narrowing of the meaning of broadly worded legislation that seeks to restrict freedom of expression I think we need a review of legislation that deals with freedom of expression from protesting to employment to hate speech and so on.

 

[smartcooky]

".... the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk."

My highlight

And? speaking sacrilegiously is blasphemy

Bible desecration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

A Bible desecration is the treatment of the Bible in a way that is intended to be disrespectful or insulting. Bible desecration is considered to be blasphemous and sacrilegious in Christianity.​

Quran desecration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quran desecration is the treatment of the Quran in a way that might be considered insulting or blasphemous.​

As I said, you have your blasphemy laws back, in a crafty and underhanded way, thanks to the CPS.

 

[Darat]

And? speaking sacrilegiously is blasphemy

As I said, you have your blasphemy laws back, in a crafty and underhanded way, thanks to the CPS.

Nope, not at all, as the judge made clear - read their judgement. This was a public disorder prosecution; we do have a "multiplier" in the law that makes that a more serious offence if it concerns religion or directed at a person's protected characteristics. But someone standing outside my front door on the public pavement, shouting obscenities, and burning a copy of Lady Chatterley's Lover would also be prosecuted for public disorder. Someone standing outside my front door on the public pavement, shouting obscenities about homosexuals and burning a copy of Attitude would also be prosecuted for public disorder with a similar "multiplier" because of the content of their obscenities.

 

[Mojo]

Nope, not at all, as the judge made clear - read their judgement. This was a public disorder prosecution; we do have a "multiplier" in the law that makes that a more serious offence if it concerns religion or directed at a person's protected characteristics. But someone standing outside my front door on the public pavement, shouting obscenities, and burning a copy of Lady Chatterley's Lover would also be prosecuted for public disorder. Someone standing outside my front door on the public pavement, shouting obscenities about homosexuals and burning a copy of Attitude would also be prosecuted for public disorder with a similar "multiplier" because of the content of their obscenities.

I think we're back to the problem people have in understanding that the context in which something is said or done is as important as what is actually said or done. We had a similar situation in a discussion a few years back in which some of the forum's resident racists tried to claim that the UK's laws on hate speech were blasphemy laws, and that the ECHR was enforcing a blasphemy law, when it was absolutely clear from their judgement that it was the context, not what was said, that was the problem.

 

[Hercules56]

And yet, 17 years later, here you are...

CPS in fresh attempts to criminalise ‘blasphemy’ 17 years after abolition

Humanists UK has warned that if a man is successfully prosecuted after burning a Quran, it would effectively subvert the will of Parliament and re-establish blasphemy laws in England and Wales by the back door. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) originally charged the man with harassing the...

humanists.uk

Humanists UK has warned that if a man is successfully prosecuted after burning a Quran, it would effectively subvert the will of Parliament and re-establish blasphemy laws in England and Wales by the back door.​

​

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) originally charged the man with harassing the ‘religious institution of Islam’. But after Humanists UK pointed out that the law doesn’t protect religious institutions from harassment, the CPS has now substituted the charge for one of likely causing harassment, alarm, or distress to individuals. Humanists UK believes that in doing so, prosecutors have sought to take a creative approach to the law that seeks to avoid explicit protections for free speech around religion written into the Public Order Act since 2006.​

In effect, the CPS used Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986, to make an end run around the lack of a blasphemy law.

Well in June of this year, the man in question was convicted.

Public disorder conviction for man who burned a Quran

A man who burnt a Quran outside the Turkish Embassy in London has been found guilty of religiously motivated harassment, alarm, or distress by Westminster Magistrates’ Court. He has been ordered to pay a fine of £240 and surcharge of £96. With welcome clarity, the judge said ‘I do not find that...

humanists.uk

Congratulations UK, you now have your blasphemy laws back.

Buring a Koran, in your fireplace, must not be a crime in a free society. Otherwise freedom is gone.

 

[Darat]

Buring a Koran, in your fireplace, must not be a crime in a free society. Otherwise freedom is gone.

That is certainly not illegal in the UK. Neither is burning a Koran at a protest about Islam.

 

[Ziggurat]

Praying silently in the wrong place is a crime in the UK.

You are not a free society. Don’t pretend you are.

 

[Thermal]

Buring a Koran, in your fireplace, must not be a crime in a free society. Otherwise freedom is gone.

...what the hell are you talking about?

Herc, think of it this way: the overt act is not illegal. The intent and effect it causes are illegal. Burning a Koran might mean nothing at all to you or I. But to some people, it causes great distress and/or they feel threatened. The act of burning a Koran is not illegal. Menacing the intended recipient is the illegal part. The Koran is incidental to that.

 

[Darat]

Praying silently in the wrong place is a crime in the UK.

You are not a free society. Don’t pretend you are.

Let's see your gotcha story link.

ETA: Hopefully it isn't this one

BBC News - Praying man breached Bournemouth abortion clinic safe zone - BBC News

Praying man breached Bournemouth abortion clinic safe zone

The physiotherapist said he had been praying for his unborn son who died by abortion 22 years ago.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Darat]

...what the hell are you talking about?

Herc, think of it this way: the overt act is not illegal. The intent and effect it causes are illegal. Burning a Koran might mean nothing at all to you or I. But to some people, it causes great distress and/or they feel threatened. The act of burning a Koran is not illegal. Menacing the intended recipient is the illegal part. The Koran is incidental to that.

Being drunk isn't an offence over here, being drunk and disorderly is.

Burning a Koran over here isn't an offence, but burning a Koran and being being publicly disorderly is.

 

[Thermal]

Being drunk isn't an offence over here, being drunk and disorderly is.

Burning a Koran over here isn't an offence, but burning a Koran and being being publicly disorderly is.

Similar in my US State. Public intoxication is not an offence and you cannot be arrested for it, but police can intervene if they believe you to be a threat to yourself or others. Give you a ride home, or let you sleep it off in the tank if you can't give your address. If you are more actively disorderly, public disorder/ disorderly person charges can kick in, and that's the legal offense.

 

[Hercules56]

Let's see your gotcha story link.

ETA: Hopefully it isn't this one

BBC News - Praying man breached Bournemouth abortion clinic safe zone - BBC News

Praying man breached Bournemouth abortion clinic safe zone

The physiotherapist said he had been praying for his unborn son who died by abortion 22 years ago.

www.bbc.co.uk

Abortion clinic safe zone???

Wtf is that???

 

[Thermal]

Abortion clinic safe zone???

Wtf is that???

What does it sound like? An area around an abortion provider where women can be free of holy rollers screaming 'whore' and 'murderer' at them. It's lots of fun after you've been raped to have to listen to that.