General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[The Great Zaganza]

Btw: it's Israel that's bringing in weapons to Hamas: all the IEDs used against the IDF are made from unexploded ordinance, all surveillance gear comes from cameras and drones Israel put up.
Israel has provided Hamas with tons and tons and tons of high explosives.

 

[lionking]

I think you need to learn history and read the plan, and see who made it.
The Allied Forces took up responsibilities and consulted the representatives of the defeated Axis Powers. And they were on the ground.
Trump and Blair are supposed rule Gaza from Washington and London.

And I think you need to look up the meaning of the word “negotiate”.

 

[webfusion]

The swap lists have been handed over by both HAMAS and Israel.

Hamas: Prisoner lists exchanged in ceasefire talks | The Jerusalem Post

Hamas confirms prisoner list exchange as part of ongoing ceasefire negotiations focused on ending the war, withdrawing Israeli forces from Gaza, and releasing long-term inmates.

www.jpost.com

I just hope that everyone understands a lot of pain is going to be felt by the public in Israel and 'Palestine' as these discussions revolve around mostly bodies for appropriate burials. (including the Sinwar brothers' remains, which are part of HAMAS' demands)

The Palestinian Prisoners Club says 303 individuals are currently serving life sentences in Israeli prisons.
HAMAS is now asking they all be freed.

As for Flotilla blockade-busters, they're still tryin' and losing...
That sorry saga will likely run out of volunteers quickly, as they realize their little game of cat-and-mouse is fruitless.
Greta the gnome has shown herself to be totally corrupt and incompetent, even posting a photo of an emaciated Israeli hostage (Eviatar David) and foisting it as a Gazan in distress! Oh, how embarrassing, their dumb propaganda knows no bounds.


Meanwhile, in Argentina -----

Milei brings crowd to its feet singing 'Hava Nagila' at book launch

During the performance, the Argentine leader praised Israel as 'the bastion of the West,' linking its defense to that of Judeo-Christian civilization before leading the crowd in song.

www.israelnationalnews.com

Meanwhile, the Jewish holiday proceeds with singing and prayer in Hebron.
An estimated 12,000 worshipers participated in the service.
Eyal Gelman, head of the Hebron Council, said: “We are looking forward for tens of thousands of visitors who will be coming to Hebron throughout the holiday week."

Watch: Thousands sing at the Cave of the Patriarchs

An estimated 12,000 worshipers participated in a festive sunrise prayer in Hebron.

www.israelnationalnews.com

 

[webfusion]

Btw: it's Israel that's bringing in weapons to Hamas: all the IEDs used against the IDF are made from unexploded ordinance, all surveillance gear comes from cameras and drones Israel put up.

7,500 metric tons of unexploded ordnance (UXO) are scattered throughout Gaza, which could take 14 years to clear.

HI assesses the contamination by explosive remnants and unexploded ordnance in Gaza

This is one example of a HI team Explosive Hazard Assessment in Gaza. It took place in Deir el-Balah last December.

www.hi-us.org

I'm fairly certain that HAMAS has other resources for obtaining equipment, rifles, RPG's, IEDS, and rockets, beyond scrounging for crashed drones and UXO.

Israel has provided Hamas with tons and tons and tons of high explosives.

That's true, as Israel for years was allowing entry to phosphates (fertilizer) and sugar (both essential components of high explosives) and irrigation piping (repurposed into rocket bodies).

 

[theprestige]

They are victims of being abused, beaten, and kept in inhumane conditions.

I haven't seen any evidence that these claims are any more true than the claims of being attacked by drones.

That's not even how you are supposed to treat prisoners of war, let alone civilians.

I question the premise that people trying to run a military blockade are properly civilians.

 

[theprestige]

what an outrageous lie - and what a pathetic attempt at making an argument.

You may want to rephrase your argument. Here it is again:

sure, it could be abused - but until it is, why not sue to save the lives of thousands of innocent people?
Is the abstract danger to Israel more important that the actual imminent danger of starvation and death for thousands?
Is a fictional Israel life really worth so much more than an actual Palestinian life?

• Leave the border open until Hamas abuses it
• Hamas poses an abstract danger
• Hamas threatens fictional Israelis

It sure sounds like you're trying to say Hamas hasn't done anything yet, that warrants closing the border. When the reality is that the border is being closed exactly because of the things Hamas is already done.

maybe mull over the fact that you can't tell the difference between saving starving, wounded and sick civilians and having a pro-Hamas position.
In the face of genocide, there is only one legitimate position you should err on.

Nobody involved in this attempt to run the blockade is saving anyone. Meanwhile, you have somehow landed on an astoundingly pro-Hamas justification for opening the border to Gaza: Hamas hasn't done anything yet to warrant closing the border.

 

[theprestige]

I think you need to learn history and read the plan, and see who made it.
The Allied Forces took up responsibilities and consulted the representatives of the defeated Axis Powers. And they were on the ground.
Trump and Blair are supposed rule Gaza from Washington and London.

To be fair, the US didn't defeat Japan by putting boots on the ground. But I get what you're saying. I, too, hope that Israel follows up the total defeat of Hamas with military occupation of Gaza, and returns the region to democratic self rule only if and when the people there convince their occupiers that they are ready and willing to participate in liberal western society.

 

[Planigale]

7,500 metric tons of unexploded ordnance (UXO) are scattered throughout Gaza, which could take 14 years to clear.

HI assesses the contamination by explosive remnants and unexploded ordnance in Gaza

This is one example of a HI team Explosive Hazard Assessment in Gaza. It took place in Deir el-Balah last December.

www.hi-us.org

I'm fairly certain that HAMAS has other resources for obtaining equipment, rifles, RPG's, IEDS, and rockets, beyond scrounging for crashed drones and UXO.


That's true, as Israel for years was allowing entry to phosphates (fertilizer) and sugar (both essential components of high explosives) and irrigation piping (repurposed into rocket bodies).

I think it is the nitrates in fertilisers that are the issue. but what would I know I'm just a brown girl in a hijab.*
ETA I learnt this from a girl from NI.

 

[Planigale]

To be fair, the US didn't defeat Japan by putting boots on the ground. But I get what you're saying. I, too, hope that Israel follows up the total defeat of Hamas with military occupation of Gaza, and returns the region to democratic self rule only if and when the people there convince their occupiers that they are ready and willing to participate in liberal western society.

So that rules out the current Israeli government then?

 

[theprestige]

So that rules out the current Israeli government then?

Not in my opinion. It does of course rule out Hamas, though.

 

[webfusion]

This ceasefire program is perhaps going to be officially signed by POTUS as he arrives in Israel next week, with a hostages-release intake facility being readied at IDF Camp Re'im.

Sisi invites Donald Trump to Cairo if ceasefire achieved | The Jerusalem Post

"It would be truly wonderful if, should an agreement be reached, you could attend its signing,” Sisi said in a message directed to Trump.

www.jpost.com

 

[arthwollipot]

Read their names, and tell me again that this is justified. Read their names.

Young lives cut short on an unimaginable scale: the 18,457 children on Gaza’s list of war dead

Every name on a list compiled by health authorities in Gaza of the child victims of Israel’s offensive

www.theguardian.com

 

[arthwollipot]

I haven't seen any evidence that these claims are any more true than the claims of being attacked by drones.

Multiple independent witnesses attest to it. You haven't seen it because you close your eyes to it.

 

[arthwollipot]

Tell me again that this is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ justified:

Report of the Commission of Inquiry: Israel’s systematic use of sexual, reproductive and other forms of gender-based violence since 7 October 2023

The Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel submits the present conference room paper to the Human Rights Council on the systematic use of sexual, reproductive and other gender-based violence by the Israeli Security Forces since 7 October 2023.
In the paper, the Commission examines Israel’s widespread destruction of Gaza and the disproportionate violence against women and children resulting from Israel’s method of war, including the targeting of residential buildings and the indiscriminate use of heavy explosives in densely populated areas. It describes the destruction of Palestinians through reproductive violence and harms resulting from the Israeli Security Forces’ deliberate attacks on sexual and reproductive health care facilities and the collapsed health care infrastructure in Gaza.

The Commission also examines the sharp increase in sexual and gender-based violence perpetrated by members of the Israeli Security Forces and settlers online and in person across the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including rape and other forms of sexual violence. It also examines how sexual and gender-based violence has taken different forms when committed against male and female members of the Palestinian community in order to dominate, oppress and destroy the Palestinian people in whole or in part.

 

[Andy_Ross]

 

[webfusion]

A quick review of where things are going regarding this ceasefire & hostages understanding between HAMAS and Israel.

First of all, the timeframe of the releases has been extended to 96 hours, and an outside task force will enter Gaza to locate and evacuate the deceased.
Second, the IDF unilaterally stood down days ago, with orders to just maintain positions defensively and get ready for a realignment of troops and pull-back in the coming week.
Third, HAMAS still (apparently) plans to retain their top "ace in the hole" card, Hadar Goldin.
Fourth, the main survivors in HAMAS' heirarchy are Gaza City Brigade commander Az-adin-al-Hadad, who is now their overall military chief, and senior official Raed Saad. They liked staying alive, apparently, and changed their tune about making a deal.
Fifth, the decision-makers for HAMAS during the previous ceasefire periods are all dead.

planigale, yes, ammonium nitrate. (see: Beirut port explosion) -- Thanks for clearing up that point.


Also, UNEP is going to be co-opted into yet another anti-Israel platform for the PalestineState to employ.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Read their names, and tell me again that this is justified. Read their names.

Young lives cut short on an unimaginable scale: the 18,457 children on Gaza’s list of war dead

Every name on a list compiled by health authorities in Gaza of the child victims of Israel’s offensive

www.theguardian.com

And remember the actual number of children murdered will be many times that figure as attested to by communications amongst the general staff of the Israeli Einsatzgruppen forces, who are running with 200,000 murders as a conservative estimate.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Israeli and US intelligence agree that Hamas cannot possibly deliver all the dead hostages buried under bombed houses in Gaza - it might take weeks or months to locate the remains, provided that the IDF give Hamas free movement in the Strip.

Let's see how long until Israeli officials demand that the deal be cancelled because not all dead hostages were handed over "on time" ?

The last ceasefire was never allowed to go past the first stage.
I don't have high hopes that this one will get any further: establishing an international force to replace the IDF occupation seems like an impossible task.

But every day without Israeli bombs and with aid will keep people alive.

 

[theprestige]

Israeli and US intelligence agree that Hamas cannot possibly deliver all the dead hostages buried under bombed houses in Gaza - it might take weeks or months to locate the remains, provided that the IDF give Hamas free movement in the Strip.

Or Hamas can give the IDF free movement in the Strip, and let them do the heavy clearing?

Why on earth would anyone besides Hamas want to give Hamas free movement in the strip?

 

[theprestige]

Multiple independent witnesses attest to it. You haven't seen it because you close your eyes to it.

Flotilla members aren't independent of each other. You haven't seen evidence because there hasn't been any presented. Just claims by unreliable narrators.