• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Wow, UK has lost freedom of speech

Mere hate speech is not inciting violence or a riot.
Hate speech frequently incites violence and riots.

Guess you haven't been reading the thread. Lots of people here calling for All sorts of nonviolent speech to be criminalized in the UK. Some folks even calling for people to be physically assaulted based on their views.
No, we're not saying that nonviolent speech should be criminalised. We just have a different definition of what constitutes violent speech.

Why have you guys allowed racists to co-opt your flag? Maybe you should just take it back.
Why did the Hindus allow the Nazis to coopt their swastika? Maybe they should just take it back.

...hundreds of young male illegal immigrants being put up free in a four star hotel in their neighbourhood...
Ah. I see you've fallen for that particular piece of right-wing propaganda.

If you can go to jail for waiving a sign that says "Palestine Action", your freedom of speech is extremely limited.

If you can go to jail for misgendering someone, your freedom of speech is extremely limited.

If you can go to jail for simply saying something that offends or hurts feelings, of God forbid dehumanizes someone, than your Freedom of Speech is holding on by a thread.
CONTEXT ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ CONTEXT!!!!

Okay, sorry. It got away from me a bit there.

Nobody is going to jail for waving a sign saying "Palestine Action" once, by themselves, in isolation. They are going to jail for participating in an organised campaign targeting Jews. You know, hate speech.

Nobody is going to jail for misgendering someone once, by themselves, in isolation. They are going to jail for continually and repeatedly using the tactic of misgendering to demonise, marginalise, and demean trans people. Hate speech.

And finally, as I knew you would, you used the O word. As I have already pointed out, this means that you are misrepresenting the argument, being dishonest, and arguing fallaciously.
 
Nobody is going to jail for misgendering someone once, by themselves, in isolation. They are going to jail for continually and repeatedly using the tactic of misgendering to demonise, marginalise, and demean trans people. Hate speech.
It's totally unacceptable for anyone to correctly identify a male as a male, that's clearly hate speech!

On the other hand... we can just go ahead and relabel this to "persons with a cervix" and "bleeders" and "chestfeeders" and "mentruators" and "uterus owners" and similar such dehumanizing language. That's totally fine.

And of course, seeing as calling a male a male is so abhorrent, it's also fine to protest carrying placards that say "decapitate terfs" or "punch a terf" or "I kill terfs" or wearing shirts emblazoned with knives and guns and barbed-wire-wrapped baseball bats while calling for people to protect trans people from the evil females that say "women: adult human female"
 
Do you think it's reasonable to expect that all parents would be in unanimous agreement on this issue?

I tend to think this is a topic where it's far more responsible for public entities to not provide sexually explicit books to kids. If the parents are okay with their kids reading it, the parents can check it out of a library or order the book themselves, and hand it to their kid.
Put controversial books behind glass. Let parents elect for their kids to see them.
 
Hate speech frequently incites violence and riots.


No, we're not saying that nonviolent speech should be criminalised. We just have a different definition of what constitutes violent speech.


Why did the Hindus allow the Nazis to coopt their swastika? Maybe they should just take it back.


Ah. I see you've fallen for that particular piece of right-wing propaganda.


CONTEXT ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ CONTEXT!!!!

Okay, sorry. It got away from me a bit there.

Nobody is going to jail for waving a sign saying "Palestine Action" once, by themselves, in isolation. They are going to jail for participating in an organised campaign targeting Jews. You know, hate speech.

Nobody is going to jail for misgendering someone once, by themselves, in isolation. They are going to jail for continually and repeatedly using the tactic of misgendering to demonise, marginalise, and demean trans people. Hate speech...

That's insane.

Britain clearly had lost all understanding of Freedom of Speech.
 
Last edited:
Put controversial books behind glass. Let parents elect for their kids to see them.
Are you imagining that the kids will never, ever go to the public or school library without their parents? Or are you assuming that kids will come in with a note from their parents giving them permission to check the book out?

I honestly don't see how this would work in any reasonable fashion.
 
In the UK, it seem that a person's understanding of the reasons why someone would wave their national flag would depend upon their preconceived perception of the person waving it i.e. a group of mums, dads and kids peacefully protesting the presence of hundreds of young male illegal immigrants being put up free in a four star hotel in their neighbourhood, will get labelled as "far-right thugs" by the Prime Minister.


Clearsprings is "paying as little as possible to the suppliers and taking as much as they can in profits", says Maia Kirby from Good Jobs First - one of 60 charities to have written an open letter.

People seeking asylum are housed in "miserable" conditions while "millions in public money… is simply taken in profit by a handful of private companies", says the letter.

There is evidence of poor nutrition, poor hygiene and rationing of period products and toilet paper at Clearsprings' sites, charities have told us.

Asylum seekers in hotels are provided with three meals a day, but we have heard concerns about the standard of food at Clearsprings' subcontracted accommodation.

"It's just terrible," said an asylum seeker from South America, whom we are calling Andrea. She said she has been living in a hotel for two years with her eight-year-old daughter.

"Some people think we are living in a paradise," she said. "Try to live as an asylum seeker only for one day - the mattresses are dirty, the toilets, everything is dirty, broken."

Food that is past its expiry date is sometimes served, she told us, and meals often lack fruit and vegetables, and contain mainly heavy carbohydrates such as bread, chips and rice.

Andrea said she boils eggs in the kettle in her room, because it is the only way to get some protein for her daughter. She said she also uses a food bank as it is difficult to buy additional food while living on the £9.95 a week she receives from the government.
 
What on earth is a progressive?
Someone who wants society to improve and move forward, not regress to authoritarianism.

That's the dream, but the reality can very easily turn into a nightmare.

Progressives are left-leaning (beyond the moderate left) - they profess to wishing that the advancing of the human condition can be achieved by simply using social reform and expecting everyone to be nice to everyone else... Adherents hold that all we have to do is sing a few choruses of "Kum Bay Yah" and the world will automatically become a better place.

Unfortunately, while its a nice idea, the reality is that it is simply naive ideasim in its silliest forum. When things don't work out they way progressives expect, they will start trying to tell everone what is best for them... whether they like it or not. You know the type - "the general populace are a simple people, they don't know what is good for them - but we know best!". Just as absolute free speech can be a path to authoriarianism, so too can the free speech suppression of progressivism.


No matter how many synonyms are invoked to try to circumscribe the inherently vague, broad, and manipulable concept of “hate,” these laws unavoidably vest broad discretion in enforcing authorities. Even when such authorities act in utmost good faith, they cannot enforce such unduly vague laws except in accordance with their own subjective values, or those of other people. As one would expect in a government where officials are (appropriately) accountable to their constituents, officials are likely to enforce these open-textured laws in accordance with the values of significant community interest groups.
One person’s cherished repudiation of intolerance is someone else’s hate speech.
Edited by jimbob: 
snipped for rule 4

Essentially what she is saying, is that restrictive hate speech laws are weapons that, when used in an attempt silence targets, can, and often do, end up backfiring on the users. It is essentially a form of Streisand Effect - white supremacists, for example, are emboldened by attempts to suppress their speech, they make a lot of noise about it, and that brings more attention to what they say. Strossen cites a great example of this in the Charlesville "Unite the Right" rally... The participants' chants ("Blood and Soil" and "The Jews will not replace us") likely caused a few people to harden their racist attitudes. But a greater effect was that it caused others to repudiate racism and to engage in anti-racist and anti fascist activism. Antifa numbers rose quite dramatically in the wake of Charlottesville.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It may have been a three star hotel. Converted to a hostel for asylum seekers, with no hotel services, no room service, etc, it can no longer be called a hotel, and has no stars.

Referring to it as a 'three star hotel' plays into the hands of the right wing parties trying to stir up unrest by painting a picture of the residents living a life of luxury.
Referring to it as a 'three star hotel' is a lie.
 
Nobody is going to jail for misgendering someone once, by themselves, in isolation.
Harry Miller was arrested for misgendering his stalker.


Of course, as you keep pretending is not that case, the process IS the punishment

ETA: And no one should EVER be arrested for speakling biological reality!!

(and for the whingers... this is simply being used as an example where speech becomes ideological, and the ruling party gets to dictate what is, and what is not hate speech, through the prism of their own political bias)

Have we left the "discussion" about the UK not being the same as the USA in regard to freedom of expression?
Free Speech is Free Speech no matter where in the world it is defined (unless, of course, you have decided to adopt the US gun lobby argument that US is different from other countries)

Are you arguing that UK is somehow speshul?

I regard Nadine Strossen's arguments to be every bit as valid when applied the UK (and anywhere else for that matter) as they are in the US. But I completely understand why you would rather dismiss them or not have them in the debate - they confront and challenge your perspective don't they!
 
Last edited:
I don’t know enough about them to have an informed opinion of them.

ETA: Government’s memorandum about them. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2025/803/pdfs/uksiem_20250803_en_001.pdf
Read a bit more about them and I'd say they are on the cusp of being a terrorist organisation. I hadn't realised they were the same group that trashed and occupied a building in our sleepy village back in April, so I've first person experience of seeing their actions. They broke into the building, smashed all the windows, threw paint all over the place, it looked as if they threw absolutely everything in the building out the windows. And then occupied the roof for some hours.

From other reading I think they are more like the ALF/ARM which despite actual bombings, threats and violence to people hasn't ever been proscribed under law as a terrorist organisation. So on balance and from what I have been able to learn they should not be on the proscribed list. If the UK government has evidence that does link them to either being funded by the likes of Iran or Hamas or it is used to fund the like of Hamas the government should make that known, if they did I would agree with it being proscribed.
 
Harry Miller was arrested for misgendering his stalker.


Of course, as you keep pretending is not that case, the process IS the punishment


Free Speech is Free Speech no matter where in the world it is defined (unless, of course, you have decided to adopt the US gun lobby argument that US is different from other countries)

Are you arguing that UK is somehow speshul?
You keep using terms I don't know, in this case "speshul", I've looked that up and I can't find a definition!

This thread was meant to be about the UK not having the same interpretation of our right to freedom of expression as the USA, so yes it does matter to the topic of the thread, for example how asylum seekers (not illegal immigrants) are housed in the UK is not as far as I can see anything at all to do with the UK or USA right to freedom of expression.
 
You keep using terms I don't know, in this case "speshul", I've looked that up and I can't find a definition!
Stop being obtuse. You know exactly what I mean

This thread was meant to be about the UK not having the same interpretation of our right to freedom of expression as the USA, so yes it does matter to the topic of the thread, for example how asylum seekers (not illegal immigrants) are housed in the UK is not as far as I can see anything at all to do with the UK or USA right to freedom of expression.
Firstly, people complaining about the illegal immigrants are having their free speech suppressed, so its topic-related.

They aren't asylum seekers.
1. Asylum seekers are people who flee a country, usually their own, because they are subject to political and/or religious and/or ethnic persecution in that country
2. When an asylum seeker reaches a safe country (one that will not persecute them for these things) their search for asylum ends at that point.
3. Asylum seekers don't get the choose from a menu of countries to go to. If this former asylum seeker proceeds to cross the border into another country, they are now illegally entering that other country... that makes them illegal immigrants.
4. Why are 90%+ of these illegal economic migrants men in their late teen to pre-40 age range (don't tell me this is some right wing lie. I can see for myself what the ages and sexes of these people are). If they left their countries because of religious persecution, why did they not bring their families with them? We have asylum seekers here, and they are all families, and they come a LOT further through far more harsh conditions than Afghanis, Iranians and Pakistanis do to get to Europe.
 
Last edited:
Progressives are left-leaning (beyond the moderate left) - they profess to wishing that the advancing of the human condition can be achieved by simply using social reform and expecting everyone to be nice to everyone else... Adherents hold that all we have to do is sing a few choruses of "Kum Bay Yah" and the world will automatically become a better place.

Unfortunately, while its a nice idea, the reality is that it is simply naive ideasim in its silliest forum.
Well, that's because it's a cartoon argument. You're literally creating a cartoon and then dismissing it for its cartoonishness.

Free Speech is Free Speech no matter where in the world it is defined (unless, of course, you have decided to adopt the US gun lobby argument that US is different from other countries)
And yet you categorically and summarily dismissed the United Nations definition, which is intended to cross national and cultural boundaries.
 
Well, that's because it's a cartoon argument. You're literally creating a cartoon and then dismissing it for its cartoonishness.

That's because the whole concept is cartoonish

....the United Nations definition, which is intended to cross national and cultural boundaries.
Perhaps you should tell that to Darat.
 

Back
Top Bottom