General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

Andy_Ross said:
Donald's statement on Palestine and the Ceasefire

Nobel winning stuff here

"If this LAST CHANCE agreement is not reached, all HELL, like no one has ever seen before, will break out against Hamas. THERE WILL BE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. Thank you for your attention to this matter!"
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How many more civilians is Israel gonna murder to get Hamas?

Another 50,000?

100,000?
 
Hercules56 said:
Clearly Mr Katz is a war criminal who must be tried. Innocent civilians who stay in the war zone cannot be unilaterally and indiscriminately declared to be terrorist, which is a designation for unlawful combatant. Such is a war crime.

Seems Israel is full of war crimes these days. No wonder they are pretty much the most hated country on the Earth, and Israelis the most hated nationality.
They act like they have done nothing wrong, and don't deserve to be resented and hated, but by standing up for and supporting what their government is doing, they are all basically co-conspirators, unless they can prove that they are standing up against their government's war crimes.
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I absolutely reject the concept that Jews or Israelis should be held responsible for the actions of a government dominated by right wing nationalists. Just as I reject the concept that Gazans should be held responsible for the actions of a minority of millitants who also committed crimes.
 
As I said earlier, Hamas has no intention of agreeing to the current, or indeed any, peace plan.
 
Planigale said:
I absolutely reject the concept that Jews or Israelis should be held responsible for the actions of a government dominated by right wing nationalists. Just as I reject the concept that Gazans should be held responsible for the actions of a minority of millitants who also committed crimes.
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Israel is a healthy democracy. They keep choosing these fascist scumbags to rule over them. The actual pro-peace parties in the Knesset have like 10 seats. Radical Judeo-extemism has clearly taken over most Israelis. Its a terrible shame.
 
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theprestige said:
Blockades are legal when used to prevent the resupply of enemy combatants. If you can figure out a way to stop Hamas from getting resupplied, without closing the Gaza borders, do share.
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You can embargo arms without also embargoing food and clean water.

Also without bombing the entire Gaza strip to rubble and murdering tens of thousands of civilians.
 
webfusion said:
jt512, their attempt to interfere with the Israeli embargo is actually turning into a more serious case of HAMAS-support than previously imagined.
None of the 40 vessels participating in the Global Sumud Flotilla was carrying ANY humanitarian aid, according to the Israeli Foreign Affairs Ministry. As the boats were inspected at Ashdod (in anticipation of transferring some minor quantities of food, medicines and baby formula & diapers), their holds were found to be devoid of materials destined for Gazans at all.
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No aid at all? It is strange that they wouldn't have at least attempted to maintain the ruse.
webfusion said:
Reports are now filtering in of more boats assembling for another attempt at provocation against the IDF.
At some point, the IDF will declare them to be "in the service of the enemy" and just sink 'em, with Italy's or Greece's navies having to fish the life-vest floaters out of the sea.
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I doubt that the IDF would use armed force against unarmed boats. But arresting the crews and passengers might be in order.
 
jt512 said:
No aid at all? It is strange that they wouldn't have at least attempted to maintain the ruse.

I doubt that the IDF would use armed force against unarmed boats. But arresting the crews and passengers might be in order.
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The IDFascists have murdered many unarmed civilians in Gaza, what's a few more on the sea?
 
arthwollipot said:
In this case a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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A stopped clock is useless, because there is no baseline standard to evaluate WHEN it's right.
Only by it's ongoing accuracy and functionality can a clock be viewed as "right" at any point.

1. Gaza will be a deradicalized terror-free zone that does not pose a threat to its neighbors.

2. Gaza will be redeveloped for the benefit of the people of Gaza, who have suffered more than enough.

3. If both sides agree to this proposal, the war will immediately end. Israeli forces will withdraw to the agreed upon line to prepare for a hostage release. During this time, all military operations, including aerial and artillery bombardment, will be suspended, and battle lines will remain frozen until conditions are met for the complete staged withdrawal.

4. Within 72 hours of Israel publicly accepting this agreement, all hostages, alive and deceased, will be returned.

5. Once all hostages are released, Israel will release 250 life sentence prisoners plus 1700 Gazans who were detained after October 7th 2023, including all women and children detained in that context. For every Israeli hostage whose remains are released, Israel will release the remains of 15 deceased Gazans.

6. Once all hostages are returned, Hamas members who commit to peaceful co-existence and to decommission their weapons will be given amnesty. Members of Hamas who wish to leave Gaza will be provided safe passage to receiving countries.

7. Upon acceptance of this agreement, full aid will be immediately sent into the Gaza Strip. At a minimum, aid quantities will be consistent with what was included in the January 19, 2025, agreement regarding humanitarian aid, including rehabilitation of infrastructure (water, electricity, sewage), rehabilitation of hospitals and bakeries, and entry of necessary equipment to remove rubble and open roads.

8. Entry of distribution and aid in the Gaza Strip will proceed without interference from the two parties through the United Nations and its agencies, and the Red Crescent, in addition to other international institutions not associated in any manner with either party. Opening the Rafah crossing in both directions will be subject to the same mechanism implemented under the January 19, 2025 agreement.

9. Gaza will be governed under the temporary transitional governance of a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee, responsible for delivering the day-to-day running of public services and municipalities for the people in Gaza. This committee will be made up of qualified Palestinians and international experts, with oversight and supervision by a new international transitional body, the “Board of Peace,” which will be headed and chaired by President Donald J. Trump, with other members and heads of State to be announced, including Former Prime Minister Tony Blair. This body will set the framework and handle the funding for the redevelopment of Gaza until such time as the Palestinian Authority has completed its reform program, as outlined in various proposals, including President Trump’s peace plan in 2020 and the Saudi-French proposal, and can securely and effectively take back control of Gaza. This body will call on best international standards to create modern and efficient governance that serves the people of Gaza and is conducive to attracting investment.

10. A Trump economic development plan to rebuild and energize Gaza will be created by convening a panel of experts who have helped birth some of the thriving modern miracle cities in the Middle East. Many thoughtful investment proposals and exciting development ideas have been crafted by well-meaning international groups, and will be considered to synthesize the security and governance frameworks to attract and facilitate these investments that will create jobs, opportunity, and hope for future Gaza.

11. A special economic zone will be established with preferred tariff and access rates to be negotiated with participating countries.

12. No one will be forced to leave Gaza, and those who wish to leave will be free to do so and free to return. We will encourage people to stay and offer them the opportunity to build a better Gaza.

13. Hamas and other factions agree to not have any role in the governance of Gaza, directly, indirectly, or in any form. All military, terror, and offensive infrastructure, including tunnels and weapon production facilities, will be destroyed and not rebuilt. There will be a process of demilitarization of Gaza under the supervision of independent monitors, which will include placing weapons permanently beyond use through an agreed process of decommissioning, and supported by an internationally funded buy back and reintegration program all verified by the independent monitors. New Gaza will be fully committed to building a prosperous economy and to peaceful coexistence with their neighbors.

14. A guarantee will be provided by regional partners to ensure that Hamas, and the factions, comply with their obligations and that New Gaza poses no threat to its neighbors or its people.

15. The United States will work with Arab and international partners to develop a temporary International Stabilization Force (ISF) to immediately deploy in Gaza. The ISF will train and provide support to vetted Palestinian police forces in Gaza, and will consult with Jordan and Egypt who have extensive experience in this field. This force will be the long-term internal security solution. The ISF will work with Israel and Egypt to help secure border areas, along with newly trained Palestinian police forces. It is critical to prevent munitions from entering Gaza and to facilitate the rapid and secure flow of goods to rebuild and revitalize Gaza. A deconfliction mechanism will be agreed upon by the parties.

16. Israel will not occupy or annex Gaza. As the ISF establishes control and stability, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) will withdraw based on standards, milestones, and timeframes linked to demilitarization that will be agreed upon between the IDF, ISF, the guarantors, and the Unites States, with the objective of a secure Gaza that no longer poses a threat to Israel, Egypt, or its citizens. Practically, the IDF will progressively hand over the Gaza territory it occupies to the ISF according to an agreement they will make with the transitional authority until they are withdrawn completely from Gaza, save for a security perimeter presence that will remain until Gaza is properly secure from any resurgent terror threat.

17. In the event Hamas delays or rejects this proposal, the above, including the scaled-up aid operation, will proceed in the terror-free areas handed over from the IDF to the ISF.

18. An interfaith dialogue process will be established based on the values of tolerance and peaceful co-existence to try and change mindsets and narratives of Palestinians and Israelis by emphasizing the benefits that can be derived from peace.

19. While Gaza re-development advances and when the PA reform program is faithfully carried out, the conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, which we recognize as the aspiration of the Palestinian people.

20. The United States will establish a dialogue between Israel and the Palestinians to agree on a political horizon for peaceful and prosperous co-existence.
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There you have it, a word-salad jumble of major proportions that HAMAS is saying, 'sure, uh, that sounds nice, but..."

I note that the term "NewGaza" is sprinkled in there.
 
webfusion said:
None of the 40 vessels participating in the Global Sumud Flotilla was carrying ANY humanitarian aid, according to the Israeli Foreign Affairs Ministry.
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The Israeli Foreign Affairs Ministry is lying.
webfusion said:
There you have it, a word-salad jumble of major proportions that HAMAS is saying, 'sure, uh, that sounds nice, but..."
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Unsourced quote is useless.
 
arthwollipot said:
Hamas is resisting demands that they disarm. And honestly, I can understand why. I don't agree with them, but I understand their position.
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Their position is not hard to understand. As their charter states, their goal is to kill all the Jews, and to do that they need weapons.
 
arthwollipot, the US got a response which basically says -- "HAMAS will simply just say yes at first and negotiate afterward."

So, we're back to that paradigm, I guess. Delay, shuffle, impose new conditions, extend 'consultations' etc. etc. etc.

IDF is holding their positions, with the HolyDay self-imposed ceasefire continuing, and at the same time, local Gazan clans are doing what they can to confront HAMAS directly with force of arms. (a mini civil-war is festering).

How are you able to determine that Israel's MFA is lying about the lack of aid on those little sailboats?
I would like to see your evidence of aid onboard.
 
lionking said:
Are you going to deny that Hamas’ only reason for existence is to destroy Israel?
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I'm not going to speak for The Great Zaganza, but yes, I'm going to deny that Hamas' only reason for existence is to destroy Israel.

The 2017 Charter makes it clear that Hamas' purpose is the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and makes clear that they oppose the Zionist Project of aggressive colonial expansion based on seizing the properties of others, and not Israel or the Jewish people in general. The Charter does not recognise Israel but also does not call for its destruction.
 
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