Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

[dirtywick]

How do you propose to hold the dead accountable?

i wrote prominent figures, idk why you’re limiting that to kirk. and that wasn’t even the point, accountability has to start at the top and you’re trying to focus on anonymous social media accounts

 

[AmyStrange]

earlier i asked damion if he felt it was a fair comparison to compare maga to nazis. he didn’t answer, but i don’t think you can go down this line until he does.

if it is fair, he’s asking you to stop doing it regardless which is akin to excusing it imo. if it’s unfair, that’s a seperate discussion. like, i didn’t start calling them nazis until they started doing rounding up people based on race and putting them in camps.

Comparing them is one thing, but I've already addressed in post #2302 what I think about calling them nazis.

 

[dirtywick]

Comparing them is one thing, but I've already addressed in post #2302 what I think of calling them nazis.

well i’d like to know if damion thinks it’s harmful rhetoric or an ugly truth.

 

[AmyStrange]

well i’d like to know if damion thinks it’s harmful rhetoric or an ugly truth.

Good luck with that.

 

[AmyStrange]

I don't think we have to wait until we find out Robinson's personal politics to stop characterizing MAGA influencers as Nazis and promoting the "kill the Nazis" memes. I enjoyed Inglorious Basterds as much as the next (American) guy, but it's an historical revenge fantasy not a modern lifestyle choice.

Hell, as far as everyone here is concerned, I could be the fat clown himself, posting in ISF during my lucid moments when I realize my other personality is a POS jackass, and...

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

[d4m10n]

idk why you’re limiting that to kirk.

Possibly the thread title threw me off here.

accountability has to start at the top and you’re trying to focus on anonymous social media accounts

I strongly disagree with the idea that we should limit ourselves to focusing on people at the top; we can each hold ourselves accountable for our own small contributions to the collection of ideas swirling about. To the extent our individual contributions encourage readers to equate folks like Kirk with volk like Goebbels, we should not be all that surprised when a few people draw the obvious conclusions about next steps.

You are of course welcome to "start at the top" but those guys probably aren't reading along here.

 

[d4m10n]

The correct term, for accuracy's sake, would be nazi-like, but that's just the writer in me.

i asked damion if he felt it was a fair comparison to compare maga to nazis.

I've already made the comparison of MAGA to fascists upthread; I don't think there is any way around that comparison given the usual checklist from the historians who made a study of bygone regimes.

If you want to go further and distinguish generic fascists from Nazis, I think you have to start talking about concentration camps designed to work masses of people to death based on their status as racial untermenschen. Only Laura Loomer actually went that far, AFAICT, so I'm fine with making the comparison in her case.

 

[AmyStrange]

Possibly the thread title threw me off here.

I strongly disagree with the idea that we should limit ourselves to focusing on people at the top; we can each hold ourselves accountable for our own small contributions to the collection of ideas swirling about. To the extent our individual contributions encourage readers to equate folks like Kirk with volk like Goebbels, we should not be all that surprised when a few people draw the obvious conclusions about next steps.

You are of course welcome to start at the top but those guys aren't reading along here.
[/hilite]

The obvious conclusion being that it's the cause of the violence against people we think are fascist, right?

Jesus, that's like linking video games to violence, which was also tried with violins on TV (as Golda Radner would say), and everyone is still trying to find that link.

I remember when I was young, many folks in the older generation thought rock'n'roll was the devil's music.

I still laugh at that one.

Hell, I remember when some people thought that weed was evil because it would make you kill people in a psychotic frenzy of destructive lust.

That one still makes me laugh even harder.

Anyway, do you really think that if everyone stops comparing the fat clown and his maga weirdoes to nazis (or fascist) that will stop the violins from playing?

But more importantly... ummm... let's see. Where was I again?

Oh yes, thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

[smartcooky]

This thread is beginning to look like a rancid, hate-fuelled rage fest. Anyone who even slightly questions narratives other than their own gets dog-piled...
The reality is that both progressives and ultra conservatives are equally responsible for the extreme tribalism that exists in politics today.
Progressives support the idea that men who claim to be women should be allowed to compete in women's sports against all of the science that says it's dangerous and unfair. They also hold he view that people should be punished for speech that offends people or makes them feel bad.
Ultra-conservatives support the idea that women should not be permitted to have bodily autonomy, that gun ownership should be widespread and unrestricted with no checks, and that free speech should be absolute and unrestricted.
ALL of these positions offend most centrists such as me.
I say I'm pro abortion, the right calls me a left-wing baby-murderer.
I say that transwomen are male, the left calls me a far right bigot and tranny-basher
I say I support background checks for gun ownership, the right calls me a leftist constitution hater
I say that only speech inciting actual violence should be restricted, I get it from both sides, the left calls me an insensitive far-right racist, the right calls me a radical left ◊◊◊◊◊◊-lover.
I've had enough. To hell with all of you - y'all enjoy your pathetic tribal squabbles - I'm out!

 

[AmyStrange]

This thread is beginning to look like a rancid, hate-fuelled rage fest. Anyone who even slightly questions narratives other than their own gets dog-piled...
The reality is that both progressives and ultra conservatives are equally responsible for the extreme tribalism that exists in politics today.
Progressives support the idea that men who claim to be women should be allowed to compete in women's sports against all of the science that says it's dangerous and unfair. They also hold he view that people should be punished for speech that offends people or makes them feel bad.
Ultra-conservatives support the idea that women should not be permitted to have bodily autonomy, that gun ownership should be widespread and unrestricted with no checks, and that free speech should be absolute and unrestricted.
ALL of these positions offend most centrists such as me.
I say I'm pro abortion, the right calls me a left-wing baby-murderer.
I say that transwomen are male, the left calls me a far right bigot and tranny-basher
I say I support background checks for gun ownership, the right calls me a leftist constitution hater
I say that only speech inciting actual violence should be restricted, I get it from both sides, the left calls me an insensitive far-right racist, the right calls me a radical left ◊◊◊◊◊◊-lover.
I've had enough. To hell with all of you - y'all enjoy your pathetic tribal squabbles - I'm out!

Why do you give a crap what stupid people call?

 

[arthwollipot]

Wow, it's almost like there are social consequences to unrestricted free speech.

 

[johnny karate]

I've already made the comparison of MAGA to fascists upthread; I don't think there is any way around that comparison given the usual checklist from the historians who made a study of bygone regimes.

If you want to go further and distinguish generic fascists from Nazis, I think you have to start talking about concentration camps designed to work masses of people to death based on their status as racial untermenschen. Only Laura Loomer actually went that far, AFAICT, so I'm fine with making the comparison in her case.

Kind of weird that you give yourself permission to use the term “fascist” while claiming “Nazi” incites violence when the person you think was killed because of said incitement was killed by someone who used the term “fascist”.

 

[dirtywick]

I've already made the comparison of MAGA to fascists upthread; I don't think there is any way around that comparison given the usual checklist from the historians who made a study of bygone regimes.

If you want to go further and distinguish generic fascists from Nazis, I think you have to start talking about concentration camps designed to work masses of people to death based on their status as racial untermenschen. Only Laura Loomer actually went that far, AFAICT, so I'm fine with making the comparison in her case.

alright, they've already built camps and are using secret police style squads of masked men that are collecting people to fill them based on race.

regardless, i don't think it's realistic or even a good idea to ask people to stop making fair and valid comparisons claiming that it incites violence. nobody wants to be compared to a nazi, it's a pretty bad thing to be. it's an insult, for sure. but, it's also a warning of the road they've gone down.

edit

i'll ask you this as well: if accurately accusing charlie kirk of promoting a fascist agenda, and at least somewhat accurately accusing charlie kirk of promoting a nazi one, is promoting political violence, if the day comes that they take that final step from race based prison camps to holocaust and now we can damion approved call him and his influencer buddies nazis, is the political violence that results from that ok?

to me that's a two way street. if anonymous people calling kirk a nazi is going to make someone so mad they want to kill him, certainly the nazi like words he's using that make that comparison somewhere between somewhat and completely valid is also a contributing factor?

 

[dirtywick]

This thread is beginning to look like a rancid, hate-fuelled rage fest. Anyone who even slightly questions narratives other than their own gets dog-piled...
The reality is that both progressives and ultra conservatives are equally responsible for the extreme tribalism that exists in politics today.
Progressives support the idea that men who claim to be women should be allowed to compete in women's sports against all of the science that says it's dangerous and unfair. They also hold he view that people should be punished for speech that offends people or makes them feel bad.
Ultra-conservatives support the idea that women should not be permitted to have bodily autonomy, that gun ownership should be widespread and unrestricted with no checks, and that free speech should be absolute and unrestricted.
ALL of these positions offend most centrists such as me.
I say I'm pro abortion, the right calls me a left-wing baby-murderer.
I say that transwomen are male, the left calls me a far right bigot and tranny-basher
I say I support background checks for gun ownership, the right calls me a leftist constitution hater
I say that only speech inciting actual violence should be restricted, I get it from both sides, the left calls me an insensitive far-right racist, the right calls me a radical left ◊◊◊◊◊◊-lover.
I've had enough. To hell with all of you - y'all enjoy your pathetic tribal squabbles - I'm out!

that's all happened in this thread?

 

[AmyStrange]

According to MSNBC:

The simple reason Americans have the right to call their president a ‘fascist’

You have the right to call President Donald Trump a fascist. It doesn’t matter if it’s literally true, even though there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that it is. Trump’s own former White House chief of staff, retired Marine Corps Gen. John Kelly, said shortly before the 2024 election, “He certainly falls into the general definition of fascist, for sure.” It’s an opinion and a political label that, even used pejoratively, is still protected speech under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

But Vice President JD Vance — who reportedly in 2016 fretted about Trump’s potential to become “America’s Hitler” and before the 2024 election unabashedly spread racist lies about Haitian immigrants — has been on a tear since the assassination of MAGA influencer Charlie Kirk, openly calling for cancellations in the form of firing people for speaking negatively of the late rhetorical pugilist’s legacy. Vance exhorted Democrats, “If you want to stop political violence, stop telling your supporters that everybody who disagrees with you is a Nazi.”

Kirk, who often spoke about how deeply influenced he was by the late right-wing radio host Rush Limbaugh (who for decades referred to feminists as “feminazis”), was no shrinking violet when it came to labeling his own political opponents. For example, in 2021 Kirk posted to the site then known as Twitter, “Joe Biden is the fascist dictator the left tried desperately to make you think Donald Trump was,” and during a 2023 podcast episode he said Biden was a “corrupt tyrant who should honestly be put in prison and/or given the death penalty for his crimes against America.”

(SNIP)

 

[dirtywick]

the whole “you just call everyone who disagrees with you a nazi” argument is predicated on the idea that they’re not nazis and it’s damaging hyperbole to the level of inciting violence.

i don’t think that’s a good argument at all, but even in the case of people like charlie kirk. he was a propagandist for what’s credibly a fascist and extremely arguably a nazi political movement.

so essentially what’s being demanded is to stop calling a nazi a nazi. it’s a little silly imo, particularly the same week said fascist/nazi movement officially, using the power of government, declared the people who call them nazis members of a terrorist organization and expanded their race based arrests. it’s just a remarkable set of misplaced priorities to look at the left and say their speech is too offensive and inciting violence.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Very few in the U.S. can be properly painted as literal “Nazi’s”.

But it’s certainly fair to point out parallels between what’s going on in the U.S. right now with the rise of the Nazi’s in 1930’s Germany. There are so many, that it seems like someone, somewhere is trying to recreate that playbook.

For example, just take the language: “Lying Press”. “Enemy Within”. “Enemy of the People”. “Vermin”. And many more examples.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

This thread is beginning to look like a rancid, hate-fuelled rage fest. Anyone who even slightly questions narratives other than their own gets dog-piled...

Well, yes. That happened when the rumor came around that the shooter was allegedly dating someone who was allegedly trans, which lured the usual crowd out of their containment thread with the promise of new trannies to scream obscenities at.

The reality is that both progressives and ultra conservatives are equally responsible for the extreme tribalism that exists in politics today.
Progressives support the idea that men who claim to be women should be allowed to compete in women's sports against all of the science that says it's dangerous and unfair. They also hold he view that people should be punished for speech that offends people or makes them feel bad.

Ahh, I see. Well. Terribly sorry your target has failed to materialize. This could still be an educational outing for you, though. Take a look at what your fellow travelers are saying when you don't have a guy in a dress to point at. Ask yourself if your views on the ethos of National Socialism really line up with what they're saying. Don't you think they doth protest just a bit more than necessary?

I've had enough. To hell with all of you - y'all enjoy your pathetic tribal squabbles - I'm out!

Bye, Felicia.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I don't think it's accurate to call the modern Republican party neo-nazis. It would be more accurate to call them fascists who are way friendlier with neo-nazis than any major political party should be.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

This thread is beginning to look like a rancid, hate-fuelled rage fest.

Don't you hang out in the "Trans-women aren't women" threads?

Anyone who even slightly questions narratives other than their own gets dog-piled...
The reality is that both progressives and ultra conservatives are equally responsible for the extreme tribalism that exists in politics today.
Progressives support the idea that men who claim to be women should be allowed to compete in women's sports against all of the science that says it's dangerous and unfair. They also hold he view that people should be punished for speech that offends people or makes them feel bad.
Ultra-conservatives support the idea that women should not be permitted to have bodily autonomy, that gun ownership should be widespread and unrestricted with no checks, and that free speech should be absolute and unrestricted.
ALL of these positions offend most centrists such as me.
I say I'm pro abortion, the right calls me a left-wing baby-murderer.
I say that transwomen are male, the left calls me a far right bigot and tranny-basher
I say I support background checks for gun ownership, the right calls me a leftist constitution hater
I say that only speech inciting actual violence should be restricted, I get it from both sides, the left calls me an insensitive far-right racist, the right calls me a radical left ◊◊◊◊◊◊-lover.
I've had enough. To hell with all of you - y'all enjoy your pathetic tribal squabbles - I'm out!

Sounds like you've had a busy day. Enjoy your time off.