Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

Ziggurat said:
No, it wasn't. You said murder. A legal execution isn't murder. You moved the goalpost, and you're blaming me for not going along with your move. That's pathetic.
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Like I said, pathetic. There's no reason, at all, you should ever be taken seriously and this is a prime example as to why. I'd laugh at you if I didn't pity you so much. Being in a cult is tough. Having to be obtuse to the point of being a joke is tough. Having to constantly make excuses for someone who would piss on your grave is tough.

I genuinely feel sorry for you Trump supporters sometimes. It would be more so if you didn't bring it on yourselves. Sorry you have to be like this, Zigg. Hopefully one day you'll break out of this nonsensical cult you're in and join others in seeing what's actually happening.
 
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Ziggurat said:
No, it wasn't. You said murder. A legal execution isn't murder. You moved the goalpost, and you're blaming me for not going along with your move. That's pathetic.
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I was wondering when this quibble would come up. The thesis, recall, was that Charlie Kirk was evil. Calling for Biden to be killed was an example supporting that thesis, illustrating how evil he is. And I call it a quibble, because fixing the characterization of the example in the manner you suggest would not affect how it supports the thesis. Calling for somebody's execution, without being able to name a crime that would actually warrant such, clearly is evil. Also, killing somebody without identifying a crime that would actually warrant it under law *would* be murder, regardless of what authority carried it out. So it's not even 100% clear that the quibble is accurate. You are welcome to argue otherwise.
 
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Ziggurat said:
No, it wasn't. You said murder. A legal execution isn't murder. You moved the goalpost, and you're blaming me for not going along with your move. That's pathetic.
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Let's stay with what was actually said: Kirk claimed that Biden had committed treason to such a degree that he deserved Capital Punishment and at the same time that he was mentally unfit to stand trial. So even if Kirk honestly believed that Biden had done something any Court in the US could possibly convict him for (which you have to admit is just plain nuts), by his own statement he could not be executed because he was too demented.

What Kirk was saying is that he was for the execution of political enemies AND that mental illness is no obstacle to an execution, i.e. that said execution should happen against the laws of the US.

We are not talking about the death penalty in general - we are talking about executing a former POTUS: do YOU, Ziggurat, believe that there will ever be a scenario in which YOU think that a former President should be executed?
If so, please state the scenario.
 
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plague311 said:
Like I said, pathetic. There's no reason, at all, you should ever be taken seriously and this is a prime example as to why. I'd laugh at you if I didn't pity you so much. Being in a cult is tough. Having to be obtuse to the point of being a joke is tough. Having to constantly make excuses for someone who would piss on your grave is tough.

I genuinely feel sorry for you Trump supporters sometimes. It would be more so if you didn't bring it on yourselves. Sorry you have to be like this, Zigg. Hopefully one day you'll break out of this nonsensical cult you're in and join others in seeing what's actually happening.
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The Great Zaganza said:
Let's stay with what was actually said: Kirk claimed that Biden had committed treason to such a degree that he deserved Capital Punishment and at the same time that he was mentally unfit to stand trial. So even if Kirk honestly believed that Biden had done something any Court in the US could possibly convict him for (which you have to admit is just plain nuts), by his own statement he could not be executed because he was too demented.

What Kirk was saying is that he was for the execution of political enemies AND that mental illness is no obstacle to an execution, i.e. that said execution should happen against the laws of the US.

We are not talking about the death penalty in general - we are talking about executing a former POTUS: do YOU, Ziggurat, believe that there will ever be a scenario in which YOU think that a former President should be executed?
If so, please state the scenario.
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Like Trump, Kirk wanted to be judge, jury, and executioner.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
You know for someone who routinely claims to be a moderate you sure do carry a lot of water for fascists, don't you?
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False. I just refuse to bow to the fashionable trend of labeling people "fascists" if you disagree with them. Name-calling is not effective argumentation, does not display good logic and reasoning, and is the refuge of children when they can't actually manage to convince people to adopt their cause.

Calling someone a fascist or a nazi or a racist or a bigot does not make them so. And to be quite honest, overzealous progressives have robbed those terms of any actual meaning. At this point, all those terms signal is that the person uttering such accusations is implacably intolerant of any diversity or inclusion of belief or viewpoints.
 
plague311 said:
He literally advocated for the murder of President Biden. That's not evil? That's a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ "Christian" view? Are you serious? You're whitewashing Kirk's past for what? You sold out your "feminism" to defend him openly mocking successful women of color just because you've watched a handful of videos? I've watched a ton of his videos because I have two son's that are of the age to be influenced by that idiot. He stalked college campuses because whenever faced with a person on his level he got his ass handed to him. He gaslit them as quickly as possible to keep them off guard and then swapped topics in and out until they got lost. Which is pretty easy when there's no fact checking happening (kind of like a Trump debate, pattern?) That's the bulk of his videos.

You also, conveniently, turn stoning gays as being "God's perfect law when it comes to sexual matters", as being "staunchly Christian"? Christians sound like terrible people.
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Are you aware that it's entirely possible for me to object to Kirk being labeled as a fascist/racist/sexist/homophobe/etc. without actually supporting any of their views, right?

Well... maybe not. Let's start real basic: Are you aware of this thing called "principles" and the import of it?
 
Yeah, guys! It's not that we've shown multiple times Kirk going out of his way to insult people of color (racist), say women need to submit to their husbands (misogyny), call for the killing of an ex-leader (fascism). That's not the point. That's neither here nor there, it's just that now that the left has used those words they no longer have meaning. That's why Emily's Cat only feels the need to point out when the left is the problem, and then when repeatedly called out, will make a milquetoast critique of the right to show she's totally not a right-winger! Why does this need to be said all of the time?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Are you aware that it's entirely possible for me to object to Kirk being labeled as a fascist/racist/sexist/homophobe/etc. without actually supporting any of their views, right?
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You mean the views that result in him being called those things? Ok...that's a different way to "logic and reason" but you're the one calling others out so I'm sure yours is water tight.
Emily's Cat said:
Well... maybe not. Let's start real basic: Are you aware of this thing called "principles" and the import of it?
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I assure you I know principles, and unlike some, I don't fold when mine are tested. Before you throw some rocks, you better reinforce that glass house you're living in, catch me?
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
Speech used to destroy democracy should not be free - democracy is a greater good than free speech,as it is a necessary requirement to protecting all other forms of speech.
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This is an incredibly short-sighted and highly partisan view. I guarantee that any effort to squash speech that you decide is bad for democracy will be turned against you and used to justify squashing your speech.
 
Emily's Cat said:
False. I just refuse to bow to the fashionable trend of labeling people "fascists" if you disagree with them. Name-calling is not effective argumentation, does not display good logic and reasoning, and is the refuge of children when they can't actually manage to convince people to adopt their cause.

Calling someone a fascist or a nazi or a racist or a bigot does not make them so. And to be quite honest, overzealous progressives have robbed those terms of any actual meaning. At this point, all those terms signal is that the person uttering such accusations is implacably intolerant of any diversity or inclusion of belief or viewpoints.
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So I am sure you can point to all the times you have spoken up here about Trump/Vance/Republicans calling Democrats as radical Socialists or Marxists.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Do you view execution for crimes as being synonymous with murder?
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What crime do you think justifies the execution of a President?
Did Biden do any of these?
Did Kirk just lie when he said Biden committed them?
We are NOT talking hypotheticals here: Kirk said that Biden should be executed - he would have if he was jury, judge and Executioner
 
Disbelief said:
So I am sure you can point to all the times you have spoken up here about Trump/Vance/Republicans calling Democrats as radical Socialists or Marxists.
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I'm happy to call out any assertion that the entire Democratic party is packed full of Marxists. Please provide some quotes for me to react to.

On the other hand... since several Democrats identify themselves as Socialists, and see quote proud to do so, it's rather hard to oppose that. AOC, Tlaib, Sanders, Cori Bush, and a handful of others all refer to themselves as socialists.

In you opinion, are marxists as bad as fascists? Are socialists as bad as nazis? Do you think that in the public mind those are viewed as equally reprehensible by the majority of people? If you were selecting an insulting epithet to use in order to stir up emotions against your opponent, would you call them a marxist, or would you call them a fascist?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
What crime do you think justifies the execution of a President?
Did Biden do any of these?
Did Kirk just lie when he said Biden committed them?
We are NOT talking hypotheticals here: Kirk said that Biden should be executed - he would have if he was jury, judge and Executioner
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Why do you persist in assuming that when I call out fallacious exaggerations intended to stir up antipathy and further entrench a tendency toward division and violence... that somehow means I support the person that's being exaggerated?

If someone here were to say that Sanders is a communist whose goal is to turn the US into the next North Korea, I would oppose that. My opposing it doesn't imply that I support any of Sander's views or policy positions, only that I strongly disagree with the narrative framing being used.

How many people on ISF have opined that Trump is a traitor, and should be tried for treason?
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'm happy to call out any assertion that the entire Democratic party is packed full of Marxists. Please provide some quotes for me to react to.
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You could probably find any number of over-generalized statements about Democrats and the left by Republicans in this very thread. Calling them the "Party of Crime" and such. Here's one for you:

Dominik Tarczyński MEP
@D_Tarczynski
As conservatives, we requested a minute of silence in the European Parliament to honor Charlie Kirk. The left, calling themselves democrats, naturally refused.
They are the same everywhere… Even in the face of death, they are incapable of showing human compassion. Therefore, I will organize an exhibition in the European Parliament commemorating Charlie Kirk. His legacy will bear fruit…

You quoted this post earlier in the thread, but forgot to call it out somehow. I guess you had a lot on your mind figuring out how to defend the honor and memory of Charlie Kirk himself.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
You could probably find any number of over-generalized statements about Democrats and the left by Republicans in this very thread. Calling them the "Party of Crime" and such. Here's one for you:

Dominik Tarczyński MEP
@D_Tarczynski
As conservatives, we requested a minute of silence in the European Parliament to honor Charlie Kirk. The left, calling themselves democrats, naturally refused.
They are the same everywhere… Even in the face of death, they are incapable of showing human compassion. Therefore, I will organize an exhibition in the European Parliament commemorating Charlie Kirk. His legacy will bear fruit…

You quoted this post earlier in the thread, but forgot to call it out somehow. I guess you had a lot on your mind figuring out how to defend the honor and memory of Charlie Kirk himself.
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Republicans are in general ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ and dummies. Them being idiots doesn't make Democrats shining examples of intellect and good thinking.

Also, I did call out that event - I fail to see any reason whatsoever that any member of EU Parliament should be expected to give a single ◊◊◊◊ about Kirk. I think it's idiotic and divisive political grandstanding to try to force this into consideration outside of the US at all.

Look, I don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about Kirk's honor and memory. What I DO care about is LESSENING political division and reducing the livelihood of a civil ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ war. You know what doesn't reduce the likelihood of continuing violent escalations? BLind partisanship and insisting that "those guys are all evil" and tap-dancing around claiming they deserve to be murdered in cold blood.

So what the ◊◊◊◊ are YOU doing to combat political violence and bring tempers down?
 
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