The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
As you can see, he was a well-respected journalist. There is no reason to believe he is a liar or making stuff up.
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But there is reason to believe *you* make stuff up. The only thing you’ve been able to cite Jack A Nelson’s book about is that it briefly mentioned his weight as 245lbs, as well as being a “giant” and “broad shouldered”. I quote a whole list of things you’ve said about Voronin and his health and weight, and you’ve supplied zero evidence for it.

You’ve provided *zero* evidence for his previous heart attacks and strokes, his advanced health problems, being very unfit, him being “hugely overweight” etc. Did you get your numerous claims of Voronin having previous heart attacks and strokes, advanced health problems, etc from Jack A. Nelson’s book? Nope, you made it up, which is why you’re just point blank refusing to answer where you got those ideas from, you made it up.

If it’s in the book then provide details, if not then provide your source and cite it properly.
 
JesseCuster said:
But there is reason to believe *you* make stuff up. The only thing you’ve been able to cite Jack A Nelson’s book about is that it briefly mentioned his weight as 245lbs, as well as being a “giant” and “broad shouldered”. I quote a whole list of things you’ve said about Voronin and his health and weight, and you’ve supplied zero evidence for it.

You’ve provided *zero* evidence for his previous heart attacks and strokes, his advanced health problems, being very unfit, him being “hugely overweight” etc. Did you get your numerous claims of Voronin having previous heart attacks and strokes, advanced health problems, etc from Jack A. Nelson’s book? Nope, you made it up, which is why you’re just point blank refusing to answer where you got those ideas from, you made it up.

If it’s in the book then provide details, if not then provide your source and cite it properly.
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Vixen is Vixen's only source. Even the stuff Vixen gets from other publications, etc. is presented here with Vixen's own unique spin.
 
JesseCuster said:
But there is reason to believe *you* make stuff up. The only thing you’ve been able to cite Jack A Nelson’s book about is that it briefly mentioned his weight as 245lbs, as well as being a “giant” and “broad shouldered”. I quote a whole list of things you’ve said about Voronin and his health and weight, and you’ve supplied zero evidence for it.

You’ve provided *zero* evidence for his previous heart attacks and strokes, his advanced health problems, being very unfit, him being “hugely overweight” etc. Did you get your numerous claims of Voronin having previous heart attacks and strokes, advanced health problems, etc from Jack A. Nelson’s book? Nope, you made it up, which is why you’re just point blank refusing to answer where you got those ideas from, you made it up.

If it’s in the book then provide details, if not then provide your source and cite it properly.
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Also, didn't a reference to back and leg injuries during the sinking somehow become chronic conditions, as well?
 
How is the ramp attached to the door when it's working as it should?

If you don't know how or even if the door and ramp were attached or how they operated just say "I don't know"
 
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Vixen said:
What do you mean 'unverifiable'? Nelson is recounting what Voronin's son told him. He certainly cannot have plucked it out of thin air!
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Voronin's son is mentioned in the same paragraph as the claim about Voronin's weight. You seem to have taken this presumptively as authority for those claims. But you aren't even sure Nelson interviewed Vassili.

Vixen said:
Nelson is not a key witness, he is simply a journalist who wrote a book telling the survivors' stories. It is not reasonable to claim he made stuff up. As a former Professor of journalism, he will know the importance of verifying information and accuracy.
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Well, from his biography we learn, "He has worked as a reporter for the Deseret News in Salt Lake City." Since you aren't from around here you probably don't recognize the Deseret News as one of the media outlets wholly owned by the Mormon Church and therefore no stranger to making stuff up. Now before you Vixensplain my hometown newspapers to me, I actually have friends who report for the Deseret News and belong to our local storytelling community (along with people who write for the Salt Lake Tribune, the secular paper). I'm not suggesting they're nefarious. But you seem to have this odd notion that a colorful yet otherwise insignificant detail in what you yourself characterize as more of a romance or adventure novel—and Nelson was also a novelist—must necessarily have a footing in factual testimony.

Vixen said:
It's likely a member of his family or secretary/editor/machine was transcribing his words and were not as savoir-faire with European names and places, being USA peeps.
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It may astound you to learn that many people who live in the United States know about such things as places in Europe, obscure notation for minutes and seconds, etc.

Vixen said:
For heaven's sake, the man was paraplegic - give him some space for typographical errors!!!
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It may astound you to learn that even people in wheelchairs have the capacity to write well and are subject to the same expectations along those lines as people who can walk. And a journalist above all else understands the value of a good copy editor. In my own college student years I was privileged to edit for the great Sam Brightman.

Reformed Offlian said:
Also, didn't a reference to back and leg injuries during the sinking somehow become chronic conditions, as well?
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The book also quotes Voronin as saying he knew his back must have been "broken" as the consequence of injury sustained before making it to a lifeboat. Yet he was still able to get up and walk, albeit with great pain. It's clear Nelson's book is taking artistic liberties. We can expect an author with a spinal injury to understand why that's not a credible narrative. Yet he wrote it anyway.

I'm sure Nelson's book is a gripping read, but it falls short as an authority for Voronin's physical condition.
 
JayUtah said:
The book also quotes Voronin as saying he knew his back must have been "broken" as the consequence of injury sustained before making it to a lifeboat. Yet he was still able to get up and walk, albeit with great pain. It's clear Nelson's book is taking artistic liberties. We can expect an author with a spinal injury to understand why that's not a credible narrative. Yet he wrote it anyway.

I'm sure Nelson's book is a gripping read, but it falls short as an authority for Voronin's physical condition.
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I noticed that, too. A person with a broken back wouldn't need some help walking; he would need to be carried on a stretcher. I'm also still puzzled and concerned by the earlier claim that a hospital that treated Voronin discussed medical details of his injuries with a nosy writer.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
I noticed that, too. A person with a broken back wouldn't need some help walking; he would need to be carried on a stretcher. I'm also still puzzled and concerned by the earlier claim that a hospital that treated Voronin discussed medical details of his injuries with a nosy writer.
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Actually my wife had a burst fracture of a vertibra and was able to walk into ER for treatment, where they immediately immobilized her. She now has a partially titanium spine, and is still able to walk.
 
Steve said:
Actually my wife had a burst fracture of a vertibra and was able to walk into ER for treatment, where they immediately immobilized her. She now has a partially titanium spine, and is still able to walk.
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Fair enough. I don't expect any lay person to be able to accurately self-diagnose a spinal injury while fleeing a sinking ship.
 
ferd burfle said:
No, it applies to people who think they’re competent but aren’t. Hmm…
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Specifically it applies to people attempting tasks in specific knowledge and/or skill domains in which they may or may not be competent regardless of their competency elsewhere. It specifically does not apply to general intelligence. Dunning and Kruger's subjects were people who were at least smart enough to get into Cornell University.
 
Let's pretend for a moment that we accept this story from the dead fictional author in his dramatised book based on current affairs news from 30 years ago about this overweight fella in advanced poor health, very unfit, having suffered previous strokes and heart attacks, yet he made it to a lifeboat with the aid of his son and father in law, then died a couple of (slang for 8) years later.

@Vixen - What's fishy about that, and how does it fit into your view of the events that led to the sinking?

(A concise answer would be really helpful because many of us are struggling to see the point of all these pages of discussion on this one topic).
 
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