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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
OK fair enough. However, survivors relate they had a great deal of trouble getting in and staying in, probably because passengers didn't really know how to work them. IIRC they were still embossed, 'VIKING SALLY', as the vessel was formerly known when I sailed in it to Stockholm.
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Your point?

As long as they were up to date with their certification the name on the boat doesn't matter.

Also, when the ship is sinking you fill the boats and rafts as people arrive at them and they are launched. There aren't specific lifeboats for the crew as compared to the passengers.
The only crew designated to a boat would the the one trained and detailed as a boat skipper. Even here you wouldn't wait for a specific crew member to arrive before launching, it's more important to a fill a boat and get it away as quickly as possible.

Rafts are more free form, some are launched by crane and filled first but the great majority are launched in to the water and people have to be in the water to get in to the raft. While they are usually a better place to be than an open boat they do require you to be in the water first which is not good if you don't have an immersion suit and floatation device.

Modern ships have covered lifeboats that offer the best of both worlds, they can be filled before launch and offer cover.
They still have the disadvantage that as a ship lists it becomes difficult to fill and launch boats in davits. That's why freefall, chute launched boats were developed.
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Vixen said:
There were ten motorised lifeboats. The JAIC says this:


Access to life boats would have been easier for those on the upper decks, except the listing was so bad eventually as to become impossible to drop down. The exact info as to whether anyone was rescued in a lifeboat is not clear. 'AI overview' says 'none' but JAIC says some lifeboats seem to have successfully lowered, although what may have happened to any potential occupants thereon is not known.
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Exactly as expected, most people that survived were in the rafts.
 
Vixen said:
Nobody knows what happened to the senior Estonian crew. Yet 245lb Voronin, with self-reported suspected broken back from violent listing injury plus fifteen-year old plus older relative, together with a retired sea captain in his mid-70's and his wife, survived OK. They were from the same cabin area as the senior crew. Other survivors were the engine room crew who knew how to get the hell out of there fast, together with passport and wet suit gear.
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The senior crew would have been the last to leave the ship, they would make sure the passengers got away firsat.

Engine Room crew had nothing left to do after the power failed. Should they have stayed in the machinery space manning their positions as the water flooded in?
Any experienced crew would have their own private purchase immersion suit of better quality than the SOLAS minimum 'once only' suits.
Also a grab bag with documents isn't unusual. I have a waterproof and floating grab bag for personal effects I use when I am sailing. I also have a very good, well insulated and easy to wear immersion suit.

You don't think before you post do you?
 
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Andy_Ross said:
The senior crew would have been the last to leave the ship, they would make sure the passengers got away firsat.

Engine Room crew had nothing left to do after the power failed. Should they have stayed in the machinery space manning their positions as the water flooded in?

You don't think before you post do you?
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No, just remarking that some working crew had no problem getting away - and good luck to them - so how come the so-called 'missing' Estonian senior brigade - all fit and healthy and off duty - are all 'missing' together, no bodies recovered?
 
Vixen said:
No, just remarking that some working crew had no problem getting away - and good luck to them - so how come the so-called 'missing' Estonian senior brigade - all fit and healthy and off duty - are all 'missing' together, no bodies recovered?
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Because they were unlucky or never got off in time.

Once you are in the water in those conditions nothing is certain, when ships sink experienced crew die all the time even when there aren't any passengers to worry about.

I am sure a brief search will find you lots of ship sinkings where the entire crew perished.
 
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Vixen said:
Nobody knows what happened to the senior Estonian crew. Yet 245lb Voronin, with self-reported suspected broken back from violent listing injury plus fifteen-year old plus older relative, together with a retired sea captain in his mid-70's and his wife, survived OK. They were from the same cabin area as the senior crew.
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Might the crew have been busy? For example, helping to organise the evacuation of the passengers?
 
Vixen said:
No, just remarking that some working crew had no problem getting away - and good luck to them - so how come the so-called 'missing' Estonian senior brigade - all fit and healthy and off duty - are all 'missing' together, no bodies recovered?
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What do you think "off duty" means when there is an emergency and the ship is literally sinking? Way to undermine any point you imagined you were making.
 
Vixen said:
That's what the man says, "he knew his back must be broken". What's more his 'son'/nephew 'had a 'broken arm'.
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Where did he say this and what did Voronin actually say to who? Is that what is says on page 221 of "Flashes in Night", the harrowing account of the tragic sinking? What does page 221 actually say? Does it say he was "grossly overweight" "clinically obese" and suffered from "an excruciating back injury" and offer evidence?

Have you read the book?
 
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Mojo said:
Does he? He doesn't seem to have written a book about the Estonia.
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Flashes in the Night: The Sinking of the Estonia : Nelson, Jack A.: Amazon.ie: Books

Flashes in the Night: The Sinking of the Estonia : Nelson, Jack A.: Amazon.ie: Books
www.amazon.ie

"Flashes in the Night captures the tragic story of the sinking of M/S Estonia in dark, cold Baltic waters on September 28, 1994. Caught in a storm during an overnight trip between Tallinn, Estonia, and Stockholm, Sweden, the ship sank in a matter of minutes. Debate continues over whether the cause was structural or sabotage, but the fact remains 852 souls were lost at sea in Europe's worst civilian disaster. Nearly one-third of those who escaped the ship died of hypothermia. A twenty-nine-year-old Swedish entrepreneur and a pretty nineteen-year-old Swedish girl are a major focus of this dramatic account. On that night when Kent Harstedt met Sara Hedrenius on the top rail of the sinking ship, they made a date for dinner in Stockholm-if they survived. Through that endless darkness, huddled in near-freezing water in their raft, they told each other jokes to stay awake and alive. Their date made world headlines. This is their story, and the story of the young British adventurer Paul Barney, along with riveting accounts of others who were a part of this harrowing life-or-death survival epic."
 
JesseCuster said:

Flashes in the Night: The Sinking of the Estonia : Nelson, Jack A.: Amazon.ie: Books

Flashes in the Night: The Sinking of the Estonia : Nelson, Jack A.: Amazon.ie: Books
www.amazon.ie

"Flashes in the Night captures the tragic story of the sinking of M/S Estonia in dark, cold Baltic waters on September 28, 1994. Caught in a storm during an overnight trip between Tallinn, Estonia, and Stockholm, Sweden, the ship sank in a matter of minutes. Debate continues over whether the cause was structural or sabotage, but the fact remains 852 souls were lost at sea in Europe's worst civilian disaster. Nearly one-third of those who escaped the ship died of hypothermia. A twenty-nine-year-old Swedish entrepreneur and a pretty nineteen-year-old Swedish girl are a major focus of this dramatic account. On that night when Kent Harstedt met Sara Hedrenius on the top rail of the sinking ship, they made a date for dinner in Stockholm-if they survived. Through that endless darkness, huddled in near-freezing water in their raft, they told each other jokes to stay awake and alive. Their date made world headlines. This is their story, and the story of the young British adventurer Paul Barney, along with riveting accounts of others who were a part of this harrowing life-or-death survival epic."
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That's by Jack A Nelson.
 
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