• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
JAIC report.
Click to expand...
Where in the report is the excerpt "thuds from the waves" being quoted from? My copy of the JAIC report is a PDF of a scanned document, I can't search the text.

Also, there is this interesting testimony - "Another witness stated that, around 0100, he heard a familiar hydraulic sound, the kind 'that is made when a visor opens and closes'" Remember when Vixen was all about how so many witnesses reported hearing explosions? As was already shown, all nonsense if you actually read the report. She has of course changed her story so now she's interested in reports of thuds and bangs, but not many sounds of explosions, most of the reports of sounds were explicitly not described as explosions, despite all the talk of supposed evidence of explosions. Anyway, that's an interesting piece of testimony, I wonder if Vixen has posted it before or is aware of it?
 
JesseCuster said:
Where in the report is the excerpt "thuds from the waves" being quoted from? My copy of the JAIC report is a PDF of a scanned document, I can't search the text.
Click to expand...
Document page 68 ("Shortly afterward they heard a tremendous thud...") and document page 74 :—

One witness, in an aft starboard cabin, was awakened by the regular blows from the waves but noticed a vague trembling which deviated from the usual. A trembling and markedly thudding noise was repealed four times at short intervals...​

These are the mentions of "thudding" noises, but none of them are attributed to waves either by the witnesses themselves or interpretively by the JAIC. The p. 74 reference in fact distinguishes the "thudding" noises from the regular sounds of the waves. I have a searchable PDF but its OCR is iffy at best and it's too large to attach here.

JesseCuster said:
Also, there is this interesting testimony - "Another witness stated that, around 0100, he heard a familiar hydraulic sound, the kind 'that is made when a visor opens and closes'"
Click to expand...
Similarly other witnesses report a "hard sound" (p. 63), a "heavy blow" (p. 66), "hard thumping and something banging" (p. 68), a "clear metallic blow" (p. 68), a "sound like metal against metal" (p. 68), a "loud metallic bang" (p. 70), "metallic thumps (p. 70), a "heavy metallic blow" (p. 74), etc. A few witnesses likened it to a collision. Most reported several such noises in succession.
 
Last edited:
Reformed Offlian said:
Nope. You brought that up. I just asked you further questions about it. I hadn't even heard about the diver thing until you posted about it.
Click to expand...
The new schtick is apparently to blame the first person to question @Vixen about a claim she has just made for having "brought it up" and suggesting that any other critics should refer to the questioner and not to the claimant, thus absolving the claimant. She tried this with the red-suited figure claim, but had to backpedal when receipts were presented.
 
Thanks for the references @JayUtah. Vixen, that’s how you produce a citation for something, instead of talking about being all about citations and sources, actual be all about the citations and sources. And stop using your memory instead of checking your files or searching the forum, you’re repeatedly spouting all sorts of untruths from your “memory”.
 
Vixen said:
It's not mutually exclusive. However, there were apx 70 members of a police trade union on board, unlikely to be in those large cabins, which were the best ones at six decks up, and where the senior crew were billeted.
Click to expand...
Your own CT source literally states that there was Swedish police officers on deck 6.

Vixen said:
Plus the divers were British so unlikely to be able to know which was a Stockholm cop.
Click to expand...
They had their names and new the cabins they were in. Hmm what other standard issue might a POLICEMAN have that might help to identify him?
Vixen said:
One of the union police, Tom Johnson, who escaped, says he was lucky to be on the 4th deck and made his way up to the 7th deck.
Click to expand...
So. nothing to do with the search of deck 6.
Obfuscation as per MO.
 
JesseCuster said:
What is "because you thought he had died a couple of years later"? You said he died a couple of years after the sinking, then when you were told it was actually 8 years later, you claimed that "a couple of years later" is a British slang phrase meaning an unknown number of years later. Now you're admitting to make a sloppy mistake, you actually had no idea when he died, and were just cribbing from your shoddy memory when you could have just checked your your actual sources and references which you no doubt have neatly filed away.

What on earth were you trying to argue when you made the preposterous claim about the British slang phrase "a couple of years later"? That is absolutely not a British slang term meaning "an unknown number of years later". I don't think you even know from post to post what you're arguing.
Click to expand...
The death needed to be soon after the sinking because Vixen's narrative required Voronin to already be in poor heath at the time of the sinking.
 
JesseCuster said:
Thanks for the references @JayUtah. Vixen, that’s how you produce a citation for something, instead of talking about being all about citations and sources, actual be all about the citations and sources. And stop using your memory instead of checking your files or searching the forum, you’re repeatedly spouting all sorts of untruths from your “memory”.
Click to expand...
No, I had just been reading through it and was quoting it.
 
EHocking said:
Your own
CT source literally states that there was Swedish police officers on deck 6.


They had their names and new the cabins they were in. Hmm what other standard issue might a POLICEMAN have that might help to identify him?

So. nothing to do with the search of deck 6.
Obfuscation as per MO.
Click to expand...
What source is this - please provide link
 
Mojo said:
The death needed to be soon after the sinking because Vixen's narrative required Voronin to already be in poor heath at the time of the sinking.
Click to expand...
He told Jack C Nelson he thought his back was broken when he was flung during a list. He also weighed 245lbs. Yet unlike the fit healthy senior Estonian crew, who would have had proper life boats, he managed to escape, with who Nelson describes as his fifteen year-old son and grandfather (but in fact may have been a nephew and father-in-law). The fact of his death not long after is an account I saw somewhere.
 
JesseCuster said:
Where in the report is the excerpt "thuds from the waves" being quoted from? My copy of the JAIC report is a PDF of a scanned document, I can't search the text.

Also, there is this interesting testimony -
"Another witness stated that, around 0100, he heard a familiar hydraulic sound, the kind 'that is made when a visor opens and closes'" Remember when Vixen was all about how so many witnesses reported hearing explosions? As was already shown, all nonsense if you actually read the report. She has of course changed her story so now she's interested in reports of thuds and bangs, but not many sounds of explosions, most of the reports of sounds were explicitly not described as explosions, despite all the talk of supposed evidence of explosions. Anyway, that's an interesting piece of testimony, I wonder if Vixen has posted it before or is aware of it?
Click to expand...
I like it.
 
Vixen said:
He told Jack C Nelson he thought his back was broken when he was flung during a list. He also weighed 245lbs. Yet unlike the fit healthy senior Estonian crew, who would have had proper life boats, he managed to escape, with who Nelson describes as his fifteen year-old son and grandfather (but in fact may have been a nephew and father-in-law). The fact of his death not long after is an account I saw somewhere.
Click to expand...
Which of the dead crew had proper lifeboats?
What is the difference between the lifeboats everyone else used and the proper lifeboats for the crew?
 
Andy_Ross said:
Which of the dead crew had proper lifeboats?
What is the difference between the lifeboats everyone else used and the proper lifeboats for the crew?
Click to expand...
I would have thought someone of your marine experience would know the difference.

Herewith the Estonia life rafts:

1757847324788.jpeg
Figure 17.7 ESTONIA’s Viking 25-K type liferaft.
1757847408519.jpeg
Figure 17.8 ESTONIA liferaft drifting upside-down.
1757847522452.jpeg
Figure 17.6 A waterlogged ESTONIA lifeboat after the accident.

(JAIC Report)
Obviously, those people located on the upper decks had the best chance of all to get a 'proper' lifeboat
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom