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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Mojo said:
Please provide a citation for this "fact".
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One witness, in a starboard cabin, was lying awake in his bed wondering about the blows from the waves and the ship's speed which he thought too high for this kind of weather.
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Would you like me to hold your hand crossing the road as well?
 
Vixen said:
Would you like me to hold your hand crossing the road as well?
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One witness, in a starboard cabin, was lying awake in his bed wondering about the blows from the waves and the ship's speed which he thought too high for this kind of weather.
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And also, please provide a citation for the phrase ("thuds from the waves") that you quoted.
 
Vixen said:
I would have thought someone of your marine experience would know the difference.

Herewith the Estonia life rafts:

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Figure 17.7 ESTONIA’s Viking 25-K type liferaft.
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Figure 17.8 ESTONIA liferaft drifting upside-down.
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Figure 17.6 A waterlogged ESTONIA lifeboat after the accident.

(JAIC Report)
Obviously, those people located on the upper decks had the best chance of all to get a 'proper' lifeboat
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You have a better chance of surviving in a covered raft than you do in an open lifeboat.

My experience and actual offshore qualifications tell me this.

Can you think why being in a covered and insulated liferaft might be better than being in a waterlogged open boat?

Both are better than being in the water.
 
Vixen said:
I would have thought someone of your marine experience would know the difference.

Herewith the Estonia life rafts:

View attachment 63859
Figure 17.7 ESTONIA’s Viking 25-K type liferaft.
View attachment 63860
Figure 17.8 ESTONIA liferaft drifting upside-down.
View attachment 63861
Figure 17.6 A waterlogged ESTONIA lifeboat after the accident.

(JAIC Report)
Obviously, those people located on the upper decks had the best chance of all to get a 'proper' lifeboat
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What do you think those photos prove, and who was in which?
 
Mojo said:
And also, please provide a citation for the phrase ("thuds from the waves") that you quoted.
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'Blows from the waves' = a poor translation by ONSE of 'thuds from the waves'. 'Blows' implies a third party actor, such as a person applying a hammer to a nail, or a fist making contact with a chin. A 'thud' more aptly describes a passive sound not caused by an actor acting on the object, in this case, 'the waves' acting of its own accord.
 
And just to remind you how we got here:
Mojo said:
The death needed to be soon after the sinking because Vixen's narrative required Voronin to already be in poor heath at the time of the sinking.
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Vixen said:
The fact of his death not long after is an account I saw somewhere.
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Mojo said:
Not a fact. And I suspect that, if asked, you will be unable to proving any citation for this "fact".
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Mojo said:
Please provide a citation for this "fact".
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Vixen said:
One witness, in a starboard cabin, was lying awake in his bed wondering about the blows from the waves and the ship's speed which he thought too high for this kind of weather.
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Would you like me to hold your hand crossing the road as well?
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Mojo said:
Please read the post you were replying to again.
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And please provide the citation.
 
Vixen said:
'Blows from the waves' = a poor translation by ONSE of 'thuds from the waves'. 'Blows' implies a third party actor, such as a person applying a hammer to a nail, or a fist making contact with a chin. A 'thud' more aptly describes a passive sound not caused by an actor acting on the object, in this case, 'the waves' acting of its own accord.
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Did you really get the quotation from the report, or was it from whatever it was translated from?

If you had been quoting the report, your quotation would have said "blows", not "thuds". Please provide the source, and the quotation in the original, that you allege it was poorly translated from, so that others can judge whether it is the ONSE or you that has translated it accurately.
 
Vixen said:
I would have thought someone of your marine experience would know the difference.

Herewith the Estonia life rafts:

View attachment 63859
Figure 17.7 ESTONIA’s Viking 25-K type liferaft.
View attachment 63860
Figure 17.8 ESTONIA liferaft drifting upside-down.
View attachment 63861
Figure 17.6 A waterlogged ESTONIA lifeboat after the accident.

(JAIC Report)
Obviously, those people located on the upper decks had the best chance of all to get a 'proper' lifeboat
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Doesn't address your claim that the crew got the "proper" lifeboats. Can you explain who you think got designated to a good lifeboat and who to a crappy one, and how you come to "know" this?
 
Andy_Ross said:
You have a better chance of surviving in a covered raft than you do in an open lifeboat.

My experience and actual offshore qualifications tell me this.

Can you think why being in a covered and insulated liferaft might be better than being in a waterlogged open boat?

Both are better than being in the water.
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OK fair enough. However, survivors relate they had a great deal of trouble getting in and staying in, probably because passengers didn't really know how to work them. IIRC they were still embossed, 'VIKING SALLY', as the vessel was formerly known when I sailed in it to Stockholm.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Doesn't address your claim that the crew got the "proper" lifeboats. Can you explain who you think got designated to a good lifeboat and who to a crappy one, and how you come to "know" this?
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There were ten motorised lifeboats. The JAIC says this:

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One lifeboat was observed on the wreck, still attached to its davits. The other nine lifeboats were detached and have been recovered from the sea. However, only two small pieces were found from one of them. The man-over-board boat (MOB) was found drifting outside Hanko on the Finnish coast.
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Of the liferafts, 52 of the 63 have been found. Two of them were not inflated. One raft was found by a Russian helicopter, 21 were found on the Estonian coast and the rest were recovered by vessels in the area.
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Ten rafts that belonged to vessels participating in the search and rescue operation were found as well as three launched by Swedish rescue helicopters. Also a Russian-manufactured raft, used for training on board the ESTONIA, was recovered.
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It has not in general been possible to determine which rafts were used by survivors or victims of the accident. JAIC Section 8.10 https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt08_6.html#4
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Access to life boats would have been easier for those on the upper decks, except the listing was so bad eventually as to become impossible to drop down. The exact info as to whether anyone was rescued in a lifeboat is not clear. 'AI overview' says 'none' but JAIC says some lifeboats seem to have successfully lowered, although what may have happened to any potential occupants thereon is not known.
 
Vixen said:
There were ten motorised lifeboats. The JAIC says this:


Access to life boats would have been easier for those on the upper decks, except the listing was so bad eventually as to become impossible to drop down. The exact info as to whether anyone was rescued in a lifeboat is not clear. 'AI overview' says 'none' but JAIC says some lifeboats seem to have successfully lowered, although what may have happened to any potential occupants thereon is not known.
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Doesn't address your claim the crew got the proper lifeboats. Hey, didn't I just say that, and then you replied with this landfill stuff?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Doesn't address your claim that the crew got the "proper" lifeboats. Can you explain who you think got designated to a good lifeboat and who to a crappy one, and how you come to "know" this?
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It's an old maritime tradition that the crappy lifeboats go out before the good ones. Hence, "women and children first".
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Doesn't address your claim the crew got the proper lifeboats. Hey, didn't I just say that, and then you replied with this landfill stuff?
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Nobody knows what happened to the senior Estonian crew. Yet 245lb Voronin, with self-reported suspected broken back from violent listing injury plus fifteen-year old plus older relative, together with a retired sea captain in his mid-70's and his wife, survived OK. They were from the same cabin area as the senior crew. Other survivors were the engine room crew who knew how to get the hell out of there fast, together with passport and wet suit gear.
 
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