Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

Then wave good-bye. And you still can't admit Lumumba is a liar.
You have to vilify Lumumba, otherwise you'd have to face the grim reality AK coldly acted the way she did of her own calculated free will. But let's pretend she was a poor waif tricked by the police, to keep up the romantic fantasy of Amelie Wronged.
 
You have to vilify Lumumba, otherwise you'd have to face the grim reality AK coldly acted the way she did of her own calculated free will. But let's pretend she was a poor waif tricked by the police, to keep up the romantic fantasy of Amelie Wronged.

blah, blah, blah, lies, blah, blah, blah

Now, could you please tell me how your meeting with Mignini went.
 
You have to vilify Lumumba, otherwise you'd have to face the grim reality AK coldly acted the way she did of her own calculated free will. But let's pretend she was a poor waif tricked by the police, to keep up the romantic fantasy of Amelie Wronged.
You have to minimize Guede's and Lumumba's lies, the police's inept, tunnel-visioned, and suspect-centered investigation otherwise you have to face the grim reality that Knox and Sollecito had nothing to do with the murder.
You have to handwave away forensic and scientific fact to keep up with the delusional fantasy of Stefanoni and Mignini Holmes.
 
Taking a broader view, how often does the ECHR deal with cases where there is an alleged denial of access to a lawyer? I've looked into this on the HUDOC website for judgments of a violation of Convention Article 6.3c. While many of the cases involve denial of access to a lawyer at the earliest stage of the proceedings - an initial questioning or interrogation - there are a very few where the denial happens later, at an appeal stage; for some of those few, that is sometimes not the fault of the state.

Here are some overall numbers of Article 6.3c cases to date, by how the ECHR heard them: Grand Chamber, 12; Chamber, 311; Committee, 106. (Committees are tribunals of 3 judges and hear only cases where the conclusion is especially clear from precedent.) Of these 429 cases, the number of cases where the ECHR judged a violation was much greater than those without. The problem with giving a simple answer from the statistics provided on HUDOC is that there may have been multiple violations in any one case, and sometimes the violation of Article 6.3c is combined with violations of Article 6, making a clear comparison problematic. For 6.3c by itself, there were 304 violations and 71 non-violations, while for 6+6.3c there were 186 violations and 48 non-violations,.
 
Taking a broader view, how often does the ECHR deal with cases where there is an alleged denial of access to a lawyer? I've looked into this on the HUDOC website for judgments of a violation of Convention Article 6.3c. While many of the cases involve denial of access to a lawyer at the earliest stage of the proceedings - an initial questioning or interrogation - there are a very few where the denial happens later, at an appeal stage; for some of those few, that is sometimes not the fault of the state.

Here are some overall numbers of Article 6.3c cases to date, by how the ECHR heard them: Grand Chamber, 12; Chamber, 311; Committee, 106. (Committees are tribunals of 3 judges and hear only cases where the conclusion is especially clear from precedent.) Of these 429 cases, the number of cases where the ECHR judged a violation was much greater than those without. The problem with giving a simple answer from the statistics provided on HUDOC is that there may have been multiple violations in any one case, and sometimes the violation of Article 6.3c is combined with violations of Article 6, making a clear comparison problematic. For 6.3c by itself, there were 304 violations and 71 non-violations, while for 6+6.3c there were 186 violations and 48 non-violations,.
In contrast with the relatively large number of cases involving alleged denial of access to a lawyer, there are only 11 cases total involving either the absence of an interpreter, inadequate interpretation, or the failure to provide free interpretation, with 9 cases judged by a Chamber and 2 by a Committee. In part, a likely reason for the low number of cases is that most persons accused of a crime in any one CoE state are residents of that state and fluent in the language used in that state. Another reason may be that most of the CoE states, being aware of the range of languages in use among the European states, are careful to provide adequate interpretation to suspects and accused persons. While there are 11 violations of Article 6.3e among the 11 cases, there are also a few non-violations. For example, in one case, the ECHR found no violation regarding the interpretation, but found a violation in the failure of the state to provide the interpretation free of charge.

As readers here are well aware, in Knox v. Italy the ECHR found three violations: Convention Articles 6.1 with 6.3c, 6.1 with 6.3e, and 3 (procedural limb).
 
You have to minimize Guede's and Lumumba's lies, the police's inept, tunnel-visioned, and suspect-centered investigation otherwise you have to face the grim reality that Knox and Sollecito had nothing to do with the murder.
You have to handwave away forensic and scientific fact to keep up with the delusional fantasy of Stefanoni and Mignini Holmes.
Please can you address why Knox and Sollecito told so many lies if they are merely the helpless victims of circumstances. If they had nothing to do with the murder, what motive or fun did they get out of lying to the police and the public, and please don't pretend 'they were tortured all night long with tag teams of twelve from Rome'. Please stop trying divert attention away from their behaviour by pointing to someone else's behaviour.
 
Please can you address why Knox and Sollecito told so many lies if they are merely the helpless victims of circumstances. If they had nothing to do with the murder, what motive or fun did they get out of lying to the police and the public, and please don't pretend 'they were tortured all night long with tag teams of twelve from Rome'. Please stop trying divert attention away from their behaviour by pointing to someone else's behaviour.

Asked and answered. You're not very good at this, are you?
 
Please can you address why Knox and Sollecito told so many lies if they are merely the helpless victims of circumstances. If they had nothing to do with the murder, what motive or fun did they get out of lying to the police and the public, and please don't pretend 'they were tortured all night long with tag teams of twelve from Rome'. Please stop trying divert attention away from their behaviour by pointing to someone else's behaviour.
No doubt the cops were under tremendous pressure from the global media to find the killer, resulting in tunnel vision and poor judgment. I think those pressures railroaded them into a self-inflicted frenzy that K&S got caught up in. The result was an obsessive and aggressive interview with K&S, which only resulted in more and more contradictions from them. In other words, the contradictory depositions and statements were orchestrated out of obsessive, heavy-handed tactics, when a softly-softly approach would have yielded better results. The Boninsegna motivation nailed it when they said that the investigation:

"was characterized by rushed, as well as inefficient, investigative strategies, which, clearly, generated more mistakes than reliable and technically usable results."

If the cops had just taken the time to take a breath, stop obsessing, and stand back for a minute, that might have allowed the killer to eventually reveal himself, which he eventually did. Amanda's memories had crystallised on the 7th November when she wrote an amendment to her memoriale. Raffaele also caught up with his memories as revealed in his prison diary when he said 4 times that Amanda had been with him at his flat on the night of the murder, "never going out". He never retracted those conclusions. In other words, the real truth came out when the incompetent investigative influence was at a minimum.

So the real liability during the investigation wasn't about what K&S actually said, which wasn't accurate, but the strategies that the investigators used that engendered those inconsistencies in the first place.
 
No doubt the cops were under tremendous pressure from the global media to find the killer, resulting in tunnel vision and poor judgment. I think those pressures railroaded them into a self-inflicted frenzy that K&S got caught up in. The result was an obsessive and aggressive interview with K&S, which only resulted in more and more contradictions from them. In other words, the contradictory depositions and statements were orchestrated out of obsessive, heavy-handed tactics, when a softly-softly approach would have yielded better results. The Boninsegna motivation nailed it when they said that the investigation:

"was characterized by rushed, as well as inefficient, investigative strategies, which, clearly, generated more mistakes than reliable and technically usable results."

If the cops had just taken the time to take a breath, stop obsessing, and stand back for a minute, that might have allowed the killer to eventually reveal himself, which he eventually did. Amanda's memories had crystallised on the 7th November when she wrote an amendment to her memoriale. Raffaele also caught up with his memories as revealed in his prison diary when he said 4 times that Amanda had been with him at his flat on the night of the murder, "never going out". He never retracted those conclusions. In other words, the real truth came out when the incompetent investigative influence was at a minimum.

So the real liability during the investigation wasn't about what K&S actually said, which wasn't accurate, but the strategies that the investigators used that engendered those inconsistencies in the first place.
So, what about the following statement.

2. In her email 4th Nov in the early hours to 25 contacts, in the quiet seclusion of RS's apartment, far from the obsessive and aggressive police; in fact, before the interrogation interview of the 5th Nov, to which she had not even been invited, and which had not yet happened, Knox claimed she had been frantically running arround, banging on Mez' door, calling her name, and trying to look in her window.​
Is it true Knox was visibly frantic with worry about Mez, running around, banging her door (even though she had Mez' phone number)? A simple yes or no, will suffice.​
 
So, what about the following statement.

2. In her email 4th Nov in the early hours to 25 contacts, in the quiet seclusion of RS's apartment, far from the obsessive and aggressive police; in fact, before the interrogation interview of the 5th Nov, to which she had not even been invited, and which had not yet happened, Knox claimed she had been frantically running arround, banging on Mez' door, calling her name, and trying to look in her window.​
Is it true Knox was visibly frantic with worry about Mez, running around, banging her door (even though she had Mez' phone number)? A simple yes or no, will suffice.​
According to the phone records, Amanda phoned Meredith 3 times on both phones before returning to VDP7 with Raffaele, which is when she discovered the mess in Filomena's room. It was then that she started banging on Meredith's door and shouting Meredith's name. Phoning and potentially being routed to voicemail doesn't mean that Meredith isn't in her room. Making sure that Meredith is at VDP7 and responsive would take priority.
 
Remind me of the answer to the following:

1. Why did Sollecito tell police Knox carried a knife in her bag?​
Is it true Knox carried a knife in her bag? A simple yes or no will suffice.​

No.

Sollecito was obviously unlawfully coerced into making that claim, because the police/PM needed Knox to have a knife on her.

You really, really ought to educate yourself a whole lot better on the phenomenon of unlawfully-coerced false confessions/accusations.
 
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(even though she had Mez' phone number)?

What does that have to do with the matter at hand? Knox had already tried calling both of Kercher's cell phones. She already know that Kercher's Italian phone was switched off and was thus going straight to voicemail (Guede had been able to figure out how to turn off that phone); and she also knew that Kercher's UK phone was ringing and ringing until it eventually diverted to voicemail (Guede had been unable to figure out how to turn off that phone).

Oh and this is a good moment for a reminder that you don't have the first idea how to interpret the network call records properly.

NB: If you insist on creepily using the familiar contraction of Kercher's first name, it's Mez's not Mez'.
 
What does that have to do with the matter at hand? Knox had already tried calling both of Kercher's cell phones. She already know that Kercher's Italian phone was switched off and was thus going straight to voicemail (Guede had been able to figure out how to turn off that phone); and she also knew that Kercher's UK phone was ringing and ringing until it eventually diverted to voicemail (Guede had been unable to figure out how to turn off that phone).

Oh and this is a good moment for a reminder that you don't have the first idea how to interpret the network call records properly.

NB: If you insist on creepily using the familiar contraction of Kercher's first name, it's Mez's not Mez'.
Next question:

Q3: When Filomena urged Knox to ring Mez, shortly after Knox switching her phone back on at midday, having cursorily rang both Mez' phones, Knox failed to tell Filomena she had already rung Mez.​
Is this true? A simple yes or no will suffice.​
 
According to the phone records, Amanda phoned Meredith 3 times on both phones before returning to VDP7 with Raffaele, which is when she discovered the mess in Filomena's room. It was then that she started banging on Meredith's door and shouting Meredith's name. Phoning and potentially being routed to voicemail doesn't mean that Meredith isn't in her room. Making sure that Meredith is at VDP7 and responsive would take priority.

Q4. Your next starter for ten: Knox was standing next to, or nearby, Sollecito when she was ringing Mez' phones and Filomena.​
Is this true? A simple yes or no will suffice.​
 
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Q4. Your next starter for ten: Knox was standing next to, or nearby, Sollecito when she was ringing Me' phones and Filomena.​
Is this true? A simple yes or no will suffice.​

Why aren't you answering my question?

Did you meet up with Mignini or was that a lie too?
 
Q4. Your next starter for ten: Knox was standing next to, or nearby, Sollecito when she was ringing Mez' phones and Filomena.​
Is this true? A simple yes or no will suffice.​
The phone calls you mention connected with Via dell'Aquila n.5 - Torre dell'Aquedotto, Sett.9 or Via dell'Aquila n.5 - Torre dell'Aquedotto, Sett.3, both of which serve the vicinity of Raffaele's flat.
 

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