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As has been discussed at tedious length, this case is very clearly not the same thing as you wish to claim is "not far-fetched" about the Estonia.
There is no record of Sweden detaining or deporting the Estonia officers. There is nobody at all who ever met any of the missing officers after the sinking. There is no plausible reason the CIA or anyone else would want to cause the ferry's officers to disappear just as if they had simply drowned in the sinking, as they very clearly did.
Also, any Soviet military tech that was left in Estonia would have also been in the DDR, the front line of the Cold War and thus was easily accessible after the Pact crumbled.
Really this thread is as nonsensical as the shroudie nonsense.
True. I suppose that one very small silver lining is that our antagonist(s) serve (even if by way of facile and fanciful theories) to make us challenge our own assumptions, inferences and narratives. So, I guess, very slightly healthy when it comes to developing a robust, evidence-based thesis.....
Maybe it is time to ask again, futile as it will likely prove to be:
Vixen - with your years of extensive "research" on this topic can you post here a concise and consistent narrative of your own views on how and why the Estonia sank? Not asking, at this point, for any evidence, links etc. Just your own consistent personal views of how and why. Can you do this?
Indeed the typical fallback position is that “something” is wrong with the prevailing narrative, therefore we have to consider the alternatives, possibly all the alternatives. It doesn’t matter who’s right as long as the mainstream remains problematic and the conspiracy theorist remains a genius for figuring that out.
But that just introduces the conspiracy two-step. That’s the double standard by which you be standard is used to dismiss the findings of competent investigators and a much lower standard applies to anything the conspiracy theorist might propose. If they actually try to explain something, we find that there’s also “something” wrong with that explanation—invariably many more somethings than the conventional narrative. Thus any attempt to subject the conspiracy theory to the same standard of proof is met with such deflections as, “I don’t have time for such trivia.”
Er, his shop was called, 'Space Craft'. In your rubbishing of Soviet technology, you claimed the US would have no use for their 'junk', but if you revisit the New York Post Article from 1991:
The shopping spree, begun by the military, is beginning to attract others. Plans are under way for a large interagency team, including the Defense Department, the Energy Department and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, to visit the Soviet Union to evaluate a host of high technologies.
So too, the Energy Department has reportedly obtained from the Soviets 27 grams, or less than an ounce, of plutonium 238, a radioactive chemical that emits heat and can be used to make electricity. A different isotope, plutonium 239, is used to build nuclear weapons. Compact power sources made with plutonium 238 are used on NASA's deep-space probes, although supplies of these sources in the United States are likely to run short in the near future because of problems in the nation's reactors that make plutonium.
The Albuquerque Journal reported yesterday that the Soviet plutonium had been obtained and analyzed by the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and been found to be of high quality. The Energy Department, it reported, is now weighing a purchase. The plutonium 238 would be used to power NASA space probes. Congress Is Interested
Congress, too, is interested in Soviet space goods. Representative Bob Traxler, the Michigan Democrat who heads the House subcommittee that oversees NASA's appropriations, and Representative Bill Green, a Manhattan Republican who is the subcommittee's ranking minority member, recently wrote NASA's Administrator to inquire about the technical feasibility of using the Soviet space station Mir or some part of it as a complement to the American program. The Soviet station is reportedly up for sale.
In an interview, Mr. Green said he had also made inquiries to Soviet diplomats about a possible purchase.
In its current issue, Space News reports that during the summit meeting in Moscow last summer, President Mikhail S. Gorbachev gave President Bush a document calling for an easing of trade restrictions to help the Soviet space industry. The White House is reportedly preparing a response.
A version of this article appears in print on Nov. 4, 1991, Section A, Page 1 of the National edition with the headline: U.S. Is Shopping as Soviets Offer To Sell Once-Secret Technology.
There very much was an interest in relevant smuggled stuff from the former-USSR. Voronin has been described as an arms trader elsewhere.
Speaking for the United States, we had nothing to do with the MS Estonia sinking in a storm. We had no interest beyond the humanitarian aspect as far as the investigation into the accident. I will point out that most of the Soviet technology we were interested in was usually obtained quietly through third parties. Since you're so fond of irrelevant facts, the SR-71/A-12 fleet of Mach-3+ reconnaissance aircraft were all made from SOVIET TITANIUM. The CIA procured the metal through a series of shadow companies set up around the world.
Speaking for the United States, we had nothing to do with the MS Estonia sinking in a storm. We had no interest beyond the humanitarian aspect as far as the investigation into the accident. I will point out that most of the Soviet technology we were interested in was usually obtained quietly through third parties. Since you're so fond of irrelevant facts, the SR-71/A-12 fleet of Mach-3+ reconnaissance aircraft were all made from SOVIET TITANIUM. The CIA procured the metal through a series of shadow companies set up around the world.
I dunno. Seems that maybe the USA was so interested in obsolete Russian technology that the contracted their allies to sink this ferry carrying it for.......reasons?
I dunno. Seems that maybe the USA was so interested in obsolete Russian technology that the contracted their allies to sink this ferry carrying it for.......reasons?
I dunno. Seems that maybe the USA was so interested in obsolete Russian technology that the contracted their allies to sink this ferry carrying it for.......reasons?
Also speaking for the United States, if we're stealing technologies, and equipment it's going to be Swedish. They make great gear. Their anti-submarine technologies are fantastic. Lucky for both parties we can just buy it from them.
Also speaking for the United States, if we're stealing technologies, and equipment it's going to be Swedish. They make great gear. Their anti-submarine technologies are fantastic. Lucky for both parties we can just buy it from them.
Not forgetting that the UK is in advanced negotiations to build new type 31 anti submarine frigates for Denmark and Sweden following the just announced order from Norway for 5 AS frigates.
When I was in the RN the Leanders were the best AS ships in the world and they have improved a lot over the decades.
What is "fair enough"?
Are you accepting the Voronin family's statement that Aleksandr had no brother? That he was a restauranter and hotelier, rather than a smuggler of soviet technology?
Is this an admission that you have nothing to back up your claims that he owned a business called "Spacecraft" and/or "Kosmos Association", and "dealt in spacecraft"? Because I don't think you made up those claims yourself, but I do think that you are trying to avoid revealing where you found them.
What is "fair enough"?
Are you accepting the Voronin family's statement that Aleksandr had no brother? That he was a restauranter and hotelier, rather than a smuggler of soviet technology?
Is this an admission that you have nothing to back up your claims that he owned a business called "Spacecraft" and/or "Kosmos Association", and "dealt in spacecraft"? Because I don't think you made up those claims yourself, but I do think that you are trying to avoid revealing where you found them.
First Google hit (for me) for '"kosmos association" voronin' is Christopher Bollyn's blog. I am shocked and surprised.
Here's what that Russian disinformation agent operating under a false name and identity has to say:
Christopher Bollyn said:
Aleksandr, a member of the Voronin "business dynasty" from Kohtla-Järve on the Estonia-Russia border, owned a company in Tallinn called "Kosmos Association" while his relative, Valeri, had a branch company in Moscow which did business with the Kurchatov Institute, Russia's famous space technology and nuclear research center.
Maybe I should have written "Because I know you didn't make up those claims yourself, and I think that you are trying to avoid revealing where you found them, because it is an unreliable source that you have recently been trying to distance yourself from", but I was hoping that Vixen would be able to read between the lines, to take the hint and come clean.
I am sometimes surprised by the resilience of my optimism.
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