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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
Might I be so bold as to jump six steps ahead so as to save wasting any further bandwidth?



Voronin dealt in space craft. That is what the divers were interested in. Who cares if this was software or hardware?
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You could have jumped the conversation six steps ahead if you had just said you didn't mean software at any point in the last few days. And as the dive transcript you linked to helpfully shows us that Rabe was completely wrong to claim that the divers were "frantically searching for" Voronin's briefcase, the matter appears to be entirely moot.

Does it not?

(At this point you could, once again, jump the conversation six steps ahead simply by agreeing with what is plainly true.)
 
Vixen said:
Might I be so bold as to jump six steps ahead so as to save wasting any further bandwidth?



Voronin dealt in space craft. That is what the divers were interested in. Who cares if this was software or hardware?
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Is someone else using your account? Because this was posted just yesterday, yet you seem unaware of it.

Vixen said:
Software technology , silly. As can be carried in an attaché case.
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MarkCorrigan said:
He dealt in space craft? I thought he was an arms dealer?

Evidence he dealt in spacecraft please.
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Er, his shop was called, 'Space Craft'. In your rubbishing of Soviet technology, you claimed the US would have no use for their 'junk', but if you revisit the New York Post Article from 1991:


The shopping spree, begun by the military, is beginning to attract others. Plans are under way for a large interagency team, including the Defense Department, the Energy Department and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, to visit the Soviet Union to evaluate a host of high technologies.

So too, the Energy Department has reportedly obtained from the Soviets 27 grams, or less than an ounce, of plutonium 238, a radioactive chemical that emits heat and can be used to make electricity. A different isotope, plutonium 239, is used to build nuclear weapons. Compact power sources made with plutonium 238 are used on NASA's deep-space probes, although supplies of these sources in the United States are likely to run short in the near future because of problems in the nation's reactors that make plutonium.

The Albuquerque Journal reported yesterday that the Soviet plutonium had been obtained and analyzed by the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and been found to be of high quality. The Energy Department, it reported, is now weighing a purchase. The plutonium 238 would be used to power NASA space probes. Congress Is Interested

Congress, too, is interested in Soviet space goods. Representative Bob Traxler, the Michigan Democrat who heads the House subcommittee that oversees NASA's appropriations, and Representative Bill Green, a Manhattan Republican who is the subcommittee's ranking minority member, recently wrote NASA's Administrator to inquire about the technical feasibility of using the Soviet space station Mir or some part of it as a complement to the American program. The Soviet station is reportedly up for sale.

In an interview, Mr. Green said he had also made inquiries to Soviet diplomats about a possible purchase.

In its current issue, Space News reports that during the summit meeting in Moscow last summer, President Mikhail S. Gorbachev gave President Bush a document calling for an easing of trade restrictions to help the Soviet space industry. The White House is reportedly preparing a response.

A version of this article appears in print on Nov. 4, 1991, Section A, Page 1 of the National edition with the headline: U.S. Is Shopping as Soviets Offer To Sell Once-Secret Technology.



There very much was an interest in relevant smuggled stuff from the former-USSR. Voronin has been described as an arms trader elsewhere.
 
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Vixen said:
Er, his shop was called, 'Space Craft'. In your rubbishing of Soviet technology, you claimed the US would have no use for their 'junk', but if you revisit the New York Post Article from 1991:


The shopping spree, begun by the military, is beginning to attract others. Plans are under way for a large interagency team, including the Defense Department, the Energy Department and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, to visit the Soviet Union to evaluate a host of high technologies.

So too, the Energy Department has reportedly obtained from the Soviets 27 grams, or less than an ounce, of plutonium 238, a radioactive chemical that emits heat and can be used to make electricity. A different isotope, plutonium 239, is used to build nuclear weapons. Compact power sources made with plutonium 238 are used on NASA's deep-space probes, although supplies of these sources in the United States are likely to run short in the near future because of problems in the nation's reactors that make plutonium.

The Albuquerque Journal reported yesterday that the Soviet plutonium had been obtained and analyzed by the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and been found to be of high quality. The Energy Department, it reported, is now weighing a purchase. The plutonium 238 would be used to power NASA space probes. Congress Is Interested

Congress, too, is interested in Soviet space goods. Representative Bob Traxler, the Michigan Democrat who heads the House subcommittee that oversees NASA's appropriations, and Representative Bill Green, a Manhattan Republican who is the subcommittee's ranking minority member, recently wrote NASA's Administrator to inquire about the technical feasibility of using the Soviet space station Mir or some part of it as a complement to the American program. The Soviet station is reportedly up for sale.

In an interview, Mr. Green said he had also made inquiries to Soviet diplomats about a possible purchase.

In its current issue, Space News reports that during the summit meeting in Moscow last summer, President Mikhail S. Gorbachev gave President Bush a document calling for an easing of trade restrictions to help the Soviet space industry. The White House is reportedly preparing a response.

A version of this article appears in print on Nov. 4, 1991, Section A, Page 1 of the National edition with the headline: U.S. Is Shopping as Soviets Offer To Sell Once-Secret Technology.



There very much was an interest in relevant smuggled stuff from the former-USSR. Voronin has been described as an arms trader elsewhere.
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You seem strangely unaware of the fact that this article discusses normal trade between the USA and Russia. These items were being bought and sold in a regular, non-clandestine manner. So where's your evidence to support your conjecture that, in addition to the out-in-the open trades which are discussed in that article, the USA was also involved in stealing these sorts of products from shady Russian sources?
 
Maybe it is time to ask again, futile as it will likely prove to be:

Vixen - with your years of extensive "research" on this topic can you post here a concise and consistent narrative of your own views on how and why the Estonia sank? Not asking, at this point, for any evidence, links etc. Just your own consistent personal views of how and why. Can you do this?
 
LondonJohn said:
You seem strangely unaware of the fact that this article discusses normal trade between the USA and Russia. These items were being bought and sold in a regular, non-clandestine manner. So where's your evidence to support your conjecture that, in addition to the out-in-the open trades which are discussed in that article, the USA was also involved in stealing these sorts of products from shady Russian sources?
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1.The USA Bought Russian stuff.

2. Therefore the USA wanted Soviet stuff


3. In Vixen's pulp spy novel running in her head this means the US smuggled stuff.
 
Vixen said:
Sorry, I have too much tow on my distaff to get bogged down with trivia.
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Or to choose your words with care.


Have you decided yet whether to champion the claim the divers were tasked with seeking Piht's briefcase? Or do you prefer to champion the claim they were tasked with finding Voronin's briefcase instead? Or is it to be both?

Or do you recognise what everyone can perfectly well tell for themselves, that the divers were not seeking any particular briefcase at all?

I predict that, 6 steps ahead, this question will still have no honest, straightforward answer.
 
Steve said:
Maybe it is time to ask again, futile as it will likely prove to be:

Vixen - with your years of extensive "research" on this topic can you post here a concise and consistent narrative of your own views on how and why the Estonia sank? Not asking, at this point, for any evidence, links etc. Just your own consistent personal views of how and why. Can you do this?
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I concur (in both the request and the futility...). I asked for something similar only a few days (but 500+ posts) ago:
dorricc0 said:
I must admit I'm relatively recent to this discussion and I haven't read through all of the preceding 2108 posts in this thread nor the preceding 6 iterations / ~500+ pages. So it's a little awkward when Vixen says, 'this has already been covered'. I guess what would be really helpful at this stage would be an executive summary covering a few bullet points of what is being claimed. You know, along the lines of:
- a briefcase was found, and therefore this implies...
- the radio transmissions were poor/late, and therefore this implies...
- some people survived and others didn't, therefore...
- the bow ramp door and visor were recovered, and damage found to be consistent with...

So how about it, @Vixen ? Could you do that for the benefit of us all here trying to follow your train of thought? It's great that you are passionate about the subject and it would be much better use of your time to put together a wee summary (rather than respond to details like Bollyn's political views or Trump's BMI).

Thanks in advance.
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Vixen said:
...Voronin owned a company in Tallinn called “Kosmos Association,” while his brother Valeri owned a similar company in Moscow that traded in weapons and space technology...
...Voronin dealt in space craft...
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Vixen said:
Er, his shop was called, 'Space Craft'...
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Evidence of this, please.


Oh, by the way:
Postimees.ee said:
...Vassili Voronin has taken over his father Aleksandr's businesses, the main of which is the Alex hotel and pub in Kohtla-Järve...

...According to one theory, Voronin was allegedly transporting some military equipment from Russia to the West, and the suitcase may have contained documents related to this topic. From there, the possible connection of all this to the shipwreck was discussed.
Both Vasily Kryuchkov* and his grandson Vasily** consider such claims absurd.
He gives the example that while the media has mentioned Voronin's brother living in Moscow as one of his partners in the alleged arms deal, the fact is that Aleksandr Voronin has never had a brother. "And he had no connections or acquaintances in Moscow at all. Only his sister lives in Norilsk," he said.
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Source

*Voronin's father-in-law
**Voronin's son
 
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Vixen said:
Sorry, I have too much tow on my distaff to get bogged down with trivia.
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The number of people asking you what you think was being smuggled makes it decidedly non-trivial. You have the capacity to make several posts per day to this thread, many of them doing little more than baiting and belittling your critics. Therefore you have plenty of capacity to tell us what you think software is.
 
dorricc0 said:
I concur (in both the request and the futility...). I asked for something similar only a few days (but 500+ posts) ago:
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Indeed the purpose of an investigation is to arrive at the best explanation for the evidence. Toward that end, the process involves whittling away at a set of hypotheses by testing them according to evidence until the one emerges that explains the evidence best using the fewest assumptions. Then we present that explanation and move on. We hope that those who suffered as a consequence of some accident find closure and a measure of solace. We hope that those responsible will take steps to avoid a repeat. But then we all go on to do other things. Real investigations converge.

Then we have conspiracy theorists and armchair detectives. Their goal is to stay relevant as long as possible. That means running in every direction all at once as long as it's away from the accepted narrative. It means repeating claims and bogging down in trivia in order to perpetuate the debate, because as long as the debate rages, they stay relevant. It means focusing attention on them rather than on the evidence and how to test it. Conspiracism is more about buttressing the illusion that the conspiracy theorist is competent if not outright genius. "Everyone else missed it, but I got the right answer!" It doesn't matter that the "right" answer changes faster than the weather. Conspiracy theories diverge, following whatever vicissitude, loose end, or wild speculation that gets the claimant another day's worth of attention.
 
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