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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Andy_Ross said:
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There were no human technical divers involved in the 2019, 2020 and 2021 dives. They were all surveyed by ROVs.
So the vessels weren't that "odd", e.g., the RS Sentinal was used by Margus Kurm in 2019
1757384390463.png

This is (apparently) the One Eagle in 1990 before it was sold as the Komet and renamed in 1998.
A most unlikely looking survey/research vessel, let alone a dive vessel (so I may be wrong)
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The 2000 expedition led by Bemis and Jutte did use human divers, but again, the expedition was advertised months before and not "secret".

Also each of the dives subsequent to the initial 1994 investigation (2000, 2019, 2022) were publicly advertised or discussed in newspapers and personal announcements. Swedish authorities tried to stop at least two of the exursions and prevent the vessels even departing to the wreck.

So the idea that any of these dives were unknown to maritime/governmental authorities before the fact (i.e. "secret") is a complete fabrication.
 
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Vixen said:
In future, please may I ask you cite my comments in context and in full, to show what post I was replying to. What you have done here is taken a post that replied to a question about professional ethics and reapplied it to something about divers and Voronin's case, as a snarky way of 'using your own words against you', in an intellectually dishonest way. Rather like the posters who browbeat one into revealing what my qualifications were and then accused one of 'bolstering yourself' when I acquiesced.
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Let's look at that exchange in full.
dorricc0 said:
For someone who prides themselves in dealing only in facts and not conjecture, and with pride in their honesty, integrity and high debating standards, this is quite a post.
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Vixen said:
Citation please. BTW I'll thank you not to twist my words and to quote me properly in context, in future.
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dorricc0 said:
My pleasure to quote you.

#1611 of this very thread, only 6 days ago:

And #1687, only 4 days ago:

And #2103 just yesterday:

Well that was easy enough. You can thank me now.
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I quoted your words straight back at you, in full and complete quotes of your posts, containing several instances of you boasting about your 'core values of integrity, honesty and authenticity'.

Well it's good to know that your 'core values of integrity, honesty and authenticity' only apply to certain posts and in certain contexts! It certainly explains a lot. ;)
 
Vixen said:
That's nonsense. Of course the coastguards noticed. They are constrained by how far their legal powers stretch in international waters.



Finally it has to be mentioned that the operation did not proceed completely undisturbed by the Swedes and Finns because there was always a “little of something”.
In detail:

  • The satellite telephone was cut off after the third day on site.
  • An additional satellite telephone installation from DER SPIEGEL was disturb-ed all the time and only ‘scrambled’ word fragments could be understood.
  • The computerised GPS system of Polaris images was disturbed and showed malfunctioning and incorrect positioning.
  • One Eagle’s own GPS system behaved similarly.
  • The Swedish Coast Guard closely watched and filmed all the time very near the activities and was deliberately trying to mislead One Eagle’s master during the search for the wreck.
  • Coast Guard air planes and helicopters were performing day to day very intensive surveillance work, by flying past the One Eagle at a short distance and performing rescue exercises.
  • The Finnish Coast Guard carried out a water-spraying exercise while the Estonian Navy was performing a mine-hunting exercise nearby.
  • Several times Swedish warships passed very close to One Eagle and all this in spite of the fact that according to the laws of these countries – Sweden, Finland, Estonia – the area was a graveyard from which all activities were banned.

estoniaferrydisaster.net

estoniaferrydisaster.net
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I know it's nonsense, it's your nonsense as you were the one claiming that the coastguards wouldn't notice a diving operation.

As someone else said, are you ok?
 
EHocking said:
There were no human technical divers involved in the 2019, 2020 and 2021 dives. They were all surveyed by ROVs.
So the vessels weren't that "odd", e.g., the RS Sentinal was used by Margus Kurm in 2019
View attachment 63657

This is (apparently) the One Eagle in 1990 before it was sold as the Komet and renamed in 1998.
A most unlikely looking survey/research vessel, let alone a dive vessel (so I may be wrong)
View attachment 63660


The 2000 expedition led by Bemis and Jutte did use human divers, but again, the expedition was advertised months before and not "secret".

Also each of the dives subsequent to the initial 1994 investigation (2000, 2019, 2022) were publicly advertised or discussed in newspapers and personal announcements. Swedish authorities tried to stop at least two of the exursions and prevent the vessels even departing to the wreck.

So the idea that any of these dives were unknown to maritime/governmental authorities before the fact (i.e. "secret") is a complete fabrication.
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Weird that anyone would claim a boat was secret. You do know the sheer volume of traffic in the Baltic and the use of radar, sonar and GPS tracking? Are you claiming that it was known in advance the plan by Eagle One was to cut an entire chunk off the bow and have it tested for explosives deformations? Maybe that might be the secret part. Or are we going to continue pretending all you need do is register every boat or even only the boats that stop and there is no secret diving because the coastguards have X-Ray eyes and cans eyes what is going on under water around the wreck.
 
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Maybe the secret dive was to search the secret communications compartment and secure the
Automatic Targeting Attack Communicator (ATAC), the system used by the Ministry of Defence to co-ordinate the navies submarines .

The ship obviously hit an old WW2 mine and sank with the secret device still aboard.
The head of the KGB, General Gogol was also trying to recover the device, hence the tracks on the sea bed.
 
Vixen said:
I requested that you also quote the posts I was responding to in full context, instead of using my response completely out of context to (a) change its meaning and (b) to scurrilously misquote me as applying my abbreviated words to a different issue altogether. But then you knew that. I am not sure what you are hoping to gain out if it except some kind of vicarious pleasure in misquoting people out of context directly to provoke ire to set the record straight.
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FIFY :sneaky:
 
Vixen said:
Weird that anyone would claim a boat was secret. You do know the sheer volume of traffic in the Baltic and the use of radar, sonar and GPS tracking? Are you claiming that it was known in advance the plan by Eagle One was to cut an entire chunk off the bow and have it tested for explosives deformations? Maybe that might be the secret part. Or are we going to continue pretending all you need do is register every boat or even only the boats that stop and there is no secret diving because the coastguards have X-Ray eyes and cans eyes what is going on under water around the wreck.
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It is not a secret dive expedition if you advertise you intend to go on a dive expedition.

ALL of these expeditions were advertised before the fact, to the point where authorities tried to prevent them starting out.

NONE of these expeditions were “secret”.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Maybe the secret dive was to search the secret communications compartment and secure the
Automatic Targeting Attack Communicator (ATAC), the system used by the Ministry of Defence to co-ordinate the navies submarines .

The ship obviously hit an old WW2 mine and sank with the secret device still aboard.
The head of the KGB, General Gogol was also trying to recover the device, hence the tracks on the sea bed.
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The tracks were probably made by the communications lizards on board the Estonia
 
MarkCorrigan said:
I know what software is, but it's very clear you don't. So without goggling it what is software? Bear in mind you've used that word in multiple posts.
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Might I be so bold as to jump six steps ahead so as to save wasting any further bandwidth?

Rabe explained how divers hired by the Swedish government spent hours breaking into cabins and frantically searching for the black briefcase that Russian space technology trader Aleksandr Voronin had been carrying.

Voronin owned a company in Tallinn called “Kosmos Association,” while his brother Valeri owned a similar company in Moscow that traded in weapons and space technology.
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Voronin dealt in space craft. That is what the divers were interested in. Who cares if this was software or hardware?
 
Well you, apparently since it was you that fist said it was software. Remember? I asked what was being smuggled since us tech far outstripped Russian tech. You vaguely said that the USSR had better space ships, I asked if that meant you thought it was rocketry that was being smuggled, you said no it was software.
 
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