Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Poem]

Then you could have answered yes, it's just you, or, if the others who share that view are your friends and relatives, for instance, you could have said as much. I thought perhaps some of the sources you have often linked to earlier in this thread, or others with professional knowledge (perhaps child psychologists specialised in childhood abuse and trauma) agreed with you, and would have been very interested to read their arguments for such a ban. But it's just your opinion, which is perfectly alright, if not very persuasive.

Someone posted earlier in the thread about the anti-porn stance of Protect 25 (The Heritage Foundation). CEASE in the UK highlights the dangers of porn - though they don't appear to explicitly say they want to ban it.

A friend of mine said that he was for a ban. I would imagine many of those who describe themselves as Christian or Muslim would be for a ban (though we know porn consumption among Christians is as prevalent as it outside of that group).

Bill to make pornography a federal crime introduced by GOP senator

Republican Mike Lee seeks to redefine ‘obscenity’ in order to empower prosecutors to punish those who make and distribute ‘extreme’ content online

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Poem]

So many people see this gotcha coming that you should be getting paid for it.

I have been gotcha-ed on this thread.

 

[Darat]

You didn't answer the question. Is actual physical sex happening - yes or no?

I'm not ChatGPT, asking me the same question is going to get you the same answer each time.
(Also a hint: Have you stopped beating your wife?")

And when an actor cries often real tears are being produced, when an actor screams at another actor real spittle is being produced, when an actor hugs an actor they are hugging, when kissing they are kissing. Are you aware most films (porn or not) are a series of scenes that get edited together to look like a singular performance? Actors may film talking about something one day, then the next day film the scene again to get a different angle and so on. Porn films are usually made the same way.

And apparently from what info I've picked up over the years (I've only known one porn performer who was "out" about what he did and that was about 35 years ago and he didn't really talk about it much - he would go across to Amsterdam every few months for a week or two to film a video) artificial ejaculate is often used. Ejaculation shots (in both meanings) may all be done on the first day of filming when the male performers ...er... are at their peak production. And then be edited during post production to appear towards the end of the movie. And like in other non-porn movies many scenes in in which actors are apparently engaging in "real" sex acts may not in fact be "real".

That 30 minute porn movie may have been made over several days, stopping and starting the actors repeatedly to get a better camera angle, to change the lighting, to retake a scene because someone got cramp in their leg, for them to grab a break and have a nice cup of tea, and so on. That is not what I would call real sex. (Albeit stopping to have a break and a nice cup of tea does sound rather appealing these days.)

 

[Poem]

I'm not ChatGPT, asking me the same question is going to get you the same answer each time.
(Also a hint: Have you stopped beating your wife?")

I vaguely remember you referring to that earlier in the thread but I'm not clear what you mean by it here.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Try this one.

Everything I say is a lie.

 

[theprestige]

Anything? Your post is confusing.

I apologize for causing you confusion. Directed at you, that statement should be read as "[You, Poem, will do] anything other than actually arguing for a blanket ban on porn, as the least intrusive, effective way to infringe on the right to free expression."

I pointed how wrong your were with your:

Everyone agrees with the principles in the UNCRC? - yet you post:

If everyone agreed with it's principles then everyone would be inclined to implement it. It is far from the appeal to popularity you suggest.

I overstated. What I meant is that everyone agrees that steps should be taken to protect children from porn. Everyone agrees that the government has some responsibility to do this. Even those who don't agree with the way the UNCRC goes about this.

When I say it's the most ignored treaty in history, I mean that it has the most signatories who are effectively ignoring its provisions. Right? None of them are taking the steps you think they should be taking, based on the treaty they signed.

I know about Zeno's paradox, but I have no idea what you are referring to.

That's fine. You can unpack the metaphor if you like. Otherwise, it's not central to the debate and you can safely ignore it as far as I'm concerned.

We are back to that Mandela quote and whether society does actually prioritise children as he thinks we should.

We're only back to this quote because you resist moving beyond it. Now that you've established the principle that motivates you, it's time for you to argue why a blanket ban on porn is your preferred way to put that principle into action. You don't have to keep going back to this quote. You can move forward from it.

Pointing out, as you are, that most prioritise easy-access porn does not make this argument dead in any way whatsoever.

If you had read my argument carefully then you would know that I clearly argued that any law that proscribes something will have interpretational issues with it's definition of what that something is.

The appeal to the UNCRC is a dead end because it doesn't go anywhere. Or rather, you don't take it anywhere. Same with the appeal to slavery.

In summary: I'm asking you to make your best argument for why a blanket ban on porn is the best solution.

 

[Emily's Cat]

i agree that children exposed to porn at a young age isn’t healthy. problem identified.

i don’t think a porn ban would be effective because it isn’t realistic and there are better choices to keep kids safe that also allow porn to exist in its own adult space on the internet as it’s a valid form of free expression. criticism of your position.

Skipping dozens of pages....

Ban amateur and privately uploaded pornographic content on the internet entirely. Allow only professionally produced and regulated porn to be hosted on age-verified sites. And like actual verification, not just "yes, I'm over 18" buttons.

It's the unregulated content that is a huge problem, there's no meaningful verification of the age or the consent of the people being shown. All of the child porn caught and acted on over the years have been uploaded by individual users, not professionally produced content. The revenge porn, the uploading of private sex tapes, etc. have all be individual uploads. Limit it to professional and regulated content, and you remove the worst of the abuses and dangers.

You can't solve for every possible leak... but you can certainly plug the biggest holes, and you can have a plan for how to address new leaks as they arise.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And when an actor cries often real tears are being produced, when an actor screams at another actor real spittle is being produced, when an actor hugs an actor they are hugging, when kissing they are kissing. Are you aware most films (porn or not) are a series of scenes that get edited together to look like a singular performance? Actors may film talking about something one day, then the next day film the scene again to get a different angle and so on. Porn films are usually made the same way.

And apparently from what info I've picked up over the years (I've only known one porn performer who was "out" about what he did and that was about 35 years ago and he didn't really talk about it much - he would go across to Amsterdam every few months for a week or two to film a video) artificial ejaculate is often used. Ejaculation shots (in both meanings) may all be done on the first day of filming when the male performers ...er... are at their peak production. And then be edited during post production to appear towards the end of the movie. And like in other non-porn movies many scenes in in which actors are apparently engaging in "real" sex acts may not in fact be "real".

That 30 minute porn movie may have been made over several days, stopping and starting the actors repeatedly to get a better camera angle, to change the lighting, to retake a scene because someone got cramp in their leg, for them to grab a break and have a nice cup of tea, and so on. That is not what I would call real sex. (Albeit stopping to have a break and a nice cup of tea does sound rather appealing these days.)

Darat... you know that the vast majority of porn on the internet is not professionally produced, don't you?

 

[arthwollipot]

I just asked if it is real sex. There is nothing remotely naïve or simplistic about it. Your comparison with movies was wrong.

Porn is a movie. A scripted, directed, and acted movie, with a cinematographer and an editor and lighting and sound technicians. Unless you're referring to amateur and self-produced porn, which as I have already said is legal if consensual and illegal and against the terms of service that I previously posted if not.

What are you suggesting - that sexual experimentation that imitates porn doesn't occur? As an example of this, strangulation is now normal, as already cited - in fact, rough sex in general is very normal among the younger generation.

Is it? How many of the younger generation have you spoken to about their sexual experiences?

Anyone watching porn knows that, to some degree, one can act out the sex they see on the set.

Yeah? Try it some time. Those people are professionals. You'll pull a muscle or worse.

They also know that nobody died (as per the scene in Blade Runner 2049) that I previously cited.

They also know that nobody was strangled.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Porn is a movie. A scripted, directed, and acted movie, with a cinematographer and an editor and lighting and sound technicians. Unless you're referring to amateur and self-produced porn, which as I have already said is legal if consensual and illegal and against the terms of service that I previously posted if not.

As I pointed out to Darat, the vast majority of on-line porn is NOT professionally produced, has no regulations, etc. And there's no way to verify that it's consensual at all.

Thus... I propose we ban all user-uploaded content, and only allow professionally licensed and regulated content.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Yeah? Try it some time. Those people are professionals. You'll pull a muscle or worse.

To be fair, they said " ..to some degree."

 

[arthwollipot]

To be fair, they said " ..to some degree."

True.

 

[Poem]

I apologize for causing you confusion. Directed at you, that statement should be read as "[You, Poem, will do] anything other than actually arguing for a blanket ban on porn, as the least intrusive, effective way to infringe on the right to free expression."

Right - you noticed my focus, for the moment, is on our legal obligations under UNCRC.

I overstated. What I meant is that everyone agrees that steps should be taken to protect children from porn. Everyone agrees that the government has some responsibility to do this. Even those who don't agree with the way the UNCRC goes about this.

I'm not clear that is so at all. If we are just talking on this thread, then Art just wants 'education' - that won't stop a child seeing this stuff.

When I say it's the most ignored treaty in history, I mean that it has the most signatories who are effectively ignoring its provisions. Right? None of them are taking the steps you think they should be taking, based on the treaty they signed.

Right.

We're only back to this quote because you resist moving beyond it. Now that you've established the principle that motivates you, it's time for you to argue why a blanket ban on porn is your preferred way to put that principle into action. You don't have to keep going back to this quote. You can move forward from it.

I just don't see any protection for children without a ban...a friends phone, sneakernet...

The appeal to the UNCRC is a dead end because it doesn't go anywhere. Or rather, you don't take it anywhere. Same with the appeal to slavery.

Nevertheless, we are obligated by law to effect safeguards.

In summary: I'm asking you to make your best argument for why a blanket ban on porn is the best solution.

I have posted previously on the negative effects on society. You have used the word pernicious - perhaps you could elaborate? You have also said that porn is unnecessary.

 

[Darat]

Skipping dozens of pages....

Ban amateur and privately uploaded pornographic content on the internet entirely. Allow only professionally produced and regulated porn to be hosted on age-verified sites. And like actual verification, not just "yes, I'm over 18" buttons.

It's the unregulated content that is a huge problem, there's no meaningful verification of the age or the consent of the people being shown. All of the child porn caught and acted on over the years have been uploaded by individual users, not professionally produced content. The revenge porn, the uploading of private sex tapes, etc. have all be individual uploads. Limit it to professional and regulated content, and you remove the worst of the abuses and dangers.

You can't solve for every possible leak... but you can certainly plug the biggest holes, and you can have a plan for how to address new leaks as they arise.

My first thoughts are that could be a good idea, I have a few niggles I've thought about as I read it, what counts as professional, barriers to entry, international cooperation, lifelong consent, disputes but I think they could be handled.

 

[Darat]

Darat... you know that the vast majority of porn on the internet is not professionally produced, don't you?

No I don't. Is it?

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm not clear that is so at all. If we are just talking on this thread, then Art just wants 'education' - that won't stop a child seeing this stuff.

Of course that's not all I want. But whatever you try and do, you're not going to stop children seeing porn. I recall one time when I was in early high school, one of the kids found an old Penthouse magazine in a bush on the side of the path, and started reading one of the letters out loud to his friends. How are you going to prevent that?

The reason I bang on about education is precisely because you're not going to stop kids seeing it. You can only make it so they know what they're seeing and can respond to it in a mature and appropriate way.

Also, the only people who argue for less education are authoritarians and fascists. Sorry to drop the F word in there but it's true.

 

[Darat]

Of course that's not all I want. But whatever you try and do, you're not going to stop children seeing porn. I recall one time when I was in early high school, one of the kids found an old Penthouse magazine in a bush on the side of the path, and started reading one of the letters out loud to his friends. How are you going to prevent that?

What's a magazine....

 

[sinnikal]

What's a magazine....

It's one of those paper things with lots of pages. I remember back to when I was about 10 or 11 and me and a mate used to find them along the riverbank path near us and just about every week we'd find a new one in the bushes*.
Yes, there was plenty of hardcore porn in circulation in the late 50's/ early 60's.
I have no doubt that there was plenty of porn available before then. I found my dad's stash badly hidden under his bed. They must have been dated earlier.
It ain't ever going to be stopped, same as prostitution and drugs.

* Obligatory "it never did me any harm".

 

[Poem]

Of course that's not all I want.

Of course? Really? I missed you saying otherwise?

But whatever you try and do, you're not going to stop children seeing porn. I recall one time when I was in early high school, one of the kids found an old Penthouse magazine in a bush on the side of the path, and started reading one of the letters out loud to his friends. How are you going to prevent that?

A seismic change in societal mores - along the lines of actually fulfilling what we have all (nearly all...USA you know who you are) legally pledged to under the UNCRC.

The reason I bang on about education is precisely because you're not going to stop kids seeing it. You can only make it so they know what they're seeing and can respond to it in a mature and appropriate way.

And I have agreed that education is important...even if porn were banned.

Also, the only people who argue for less education are authoritarians and fascists. Sorry to drop the F word in there but it's true.

Who wants less education?

 

[Poem]

It's one of those paper things with lots of pages. I remember back to when I was about 10 or 11 and me and a mate used to find them along the riverbank path near us and just about every week we'd find a new one in the bushes*.
Yes, there was plenty of hardcore porn in circulation in the late 50's/ early 60's.
I have no doubt that there was plenty of porn available before then. I found my dad's stash badly hidden under his bed. They must have been dated earlier.
It ain't ever going to be stopped, same as prostitution and drugs.

* Obligatory "it never did me any harm".

It ain't ever going to be stopped, same as prostitution and drugs...............and slavery.

Objectify men and women in porn (particularly women), allow violent, abusive and barely legal content etc and allow unverified uploads - and watch society change....radically.