Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Emily's Cat]

Well, an obvious one would be whether they consistently identify as trans.

Okay, and how long do they have to "consistently identify" before you, in your infinite masculine wisdom, decide that they're legitimate?

Do you grant females the right to deny a male-bodied person access to a female shower or changing room until they've evaluated whether or not the male in question has "consistently identifies" long enough to satisfy them?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Once you know that gender identity non-discrimination law don't, in practice, increase rates of sexual assaults in public bathrooms, the relative propensity for violence of transwoman is neither here nor there.

But we DO have observed increases of sexual assaults in unisex bathrooms.

Do you believe that males with transgender identities show the same offending patterns as females do?

 

[Emily's Cat]

No they aren't. If there are two transwomen in the ladies', then each of them is sharing the facilities with a male, and no rights violation has occurred.

You're kidding right? What about the far, far, far more likely situation where there is at least one female in the female facility, and a male with a transgender identity comes in? Don't you think that violates the rights of the females? Or do you only care about the rights of males?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Depends on where you lived, I suppose. I don't think the bathroom situation in the Jim Crow south was particularly good.

Sure, sure. Because powerful females who control most of the laws have totally been oppressing males for hundreds of years, even though there's absolutely no observed difference in strength or likelihood to commit sexual violence between the sexes. Yeparooni.

 

[Thermal]

<nvm, won't go anywhere>

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm contesting that we can generalize from transwomen in prison to transwomen in the general population. Whether we can compare one class of prisoner to another is neither here nor there.

We do this all the time with all other crimes. We extrapolate the male sex offenders in prison to represent the likelihood of sex offenses in the general male population, we extrapolate the female shoplifters in prison to represent the likelihood of shoplifting offenses in the general female population, we extrapolate the population of financial crimes committed by accountants to represent the likelihood of accountants committing financial crimes in the general population.

Why do you think that this same approach should not be applied to males with transgender identities?

Approximately, anyway (strictly speaking, it shows that around 60% of legally male transwomen prisoners have been sentenced for at least one sexual offense). This isn't particularly relevant to anything I'm arguing, so I'm not sure why you've asked me about it.

It's relevant to females across the board. The rate of sexual offending among males with transgender identities is HIGHER than the rate among males as a whole - the likelihood of a randomly encountered male with a transgender identity being a sex offender is HIGHER than the likelihood of a randomly encountered non-trans male being one.

 

[mumblethrax]

Do you grant females the right to deny a male-bodied person access to a female shower or changing room until they've evaluated whether or not the male in question has "consistently identifies" long enough to satisfy them?

I was pointing out that independent of legal requirements, we can evaluate whether someone is genuinely trans or not. We don't need to just take their word for it.

Denying people access is not independent of legal requirements, and it's generally going to be up to property managers to carry it out.

I'm not granting anyone anything, because I have no power to do so. That's up to ordinary political processes.

But we DO have observed increases of sexual assaults in unisex bathrooms.

I'd be interested in seeing that evidence. Does it distinguish between multi- and single-occupancy unisex bathrooms?

Do you believe that males with transgender identities show the same offending patterns as females do?

No.

Sure, sure. Because powerful females who control most of the laws have totally been oppressing males for hundreds of years, even though there's absolutely no observed difference in strength or likelihood to commit sexual violence between the sexes. Yeparooni.

I don't know what idea you're responding to here, but I'm confident it is not the one I was trying to convey.

Why do you think that this same approach should not be applied to males with transgender identities?

Because it isn't statistically valid.

The rate of sexual offending among males with transgender identities is HIGHER than the rate among males as a whole - the likelihood of a randomly encountered male with a transgender identity being a sex offender is HIGHER than the likelihood of a randomly encountered non-trans male being one.

The evidence cited for this claim is bogus.

As a general note, I don't know why you feel the need to relitigate posts that have already been discussed. I've already answered many of these points.

 

[Thermal]

I'd be interested in seeing that evidence. Does it distinguish between multi- and single-occupancy unisex bathrooms?

It refers to multiple occupancy. It was posted way back, and actually makes intuitive sense: a man can be expected in an unisex bathroom, and a predatory male has access to victims he would not otherwise have. Not so for a cis man in a women's room. He is not expected to be there and sticks out like a sore thumb, alerting everyone around. Zero ability for a predator to be discreet.

As a general note, I don't know why you feel the need to relitigate posts that have already been discussed. I've already answered many of these points.

Get used to it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I look at crime rates. There's no reason to look at "what percentage of people in prison are in prison for committing at least one instance of this class of crime," because it's a totally different measure, and particularly as this will not allow me to answer my question.

Are you seriously splitting hairs on the difference between conviction rates and incarceration rates? Even though incarceration rates will ALWAYS be the lower rate, and thus will be more generous to males when it comes to rates of sex offending?

It's entirely reasonable and appropriate for us to infer that the rate of sexual offending for males is at least as high as the proportion of males in the population who are currently incarcerated for sexual offenses. Similarly, it's entirely reasonable for us to infer that the rate of sexual offending for males with transgender identities is at least as high as the proportion of males with transgender identities in the population who are currently incarcerated for sexual offenses.

In both cases, we end up with solid statistical data that correctly communicates that males are a significantly higher risk to females than the other way around, and furthermore we can correctly conclude that males with a transgender identity pose a materially higher risk than males without a transgender identity.

All of that is a fair and appropriate application of statistical data and logical inference.

I didn't ask whether we know that. We do know that. Public restrooms are not changing rooms. Gender identity non-discrimination does not imply unisex facilities (which is why they had to be separately legislated in NYC).

Again, splitting hairs. If a restroom allows both males and females to use it, then it is definitionally unisex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It is not, and we've been over it several times. Gender self ID "is the concept that a person's legal sex or gender is determined by their gender identity, without medical or judicial requirements".

Gender self-identification - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

and their gender identity is further defined as "the personal sense of one's own gender".

Gender identity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

and gender being "the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man (or boy), woman (or girl), or third gender".

Gender - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

At no point anywhere credible is self ID defined as meaning "whatever I say something is".

ORLY? How does your wonderful state determine which male with a transgender identity is legitimately allowed to use the female restroom, and which is not? What paperwork are they required to provide to support their legal identity?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Again, not true. I can utter the magic phrase right now and it will change nothing about my internal sense of self. Watch: "I'm a transwoman". Yeah, nothing changed. I'm still a guy.

NOBODY CAN READ YOUR MIND SO NOBODY KNOWS IF YOU'RE LYING OR NOT!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Smartcookys little factoid is championed by those who hate dem trannys and employ their confirmation bias to see what they want to see. I ain't one of them.

And yet you continue to be the only person in this thread using derogatory slurs.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If any of these transwomen have been unfairly incarcerated I'm yet to hear it from the vocal and violent trans rights movement. I think its more likely transwomen have been let off easily

IIRC, there was at least one case of a male with a transgender identity in britain who was excused from prison time, because the judge decided that being trans was an extenuating circumstance for why they had thousands and thousands of child torture and porn images.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Team Anti Trans.

This is pretty much the same behavior as when religious people call pro-choice positions "pro-abortion". It's untrue propaganda.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't see any reason to believe that women, by and large, view public bathrooms as places to seek safety from predators.

Perhaps you might consider setting aside your male privilege for a moment, and actually listening to females.

I have certainly used the restroom at a night club to escape from a male who wouldn't take no for an answer, and kept grabbing at my butt. I escaped to a refuge where I was secure in the knowledge that the male would be unlikely to follow me there, and if they did, the other females in the space would have my back as would the owners of the establishment.

I ducked into a bathroom while cross campus one evening to get away from a male who had followed me for a long ways, sped up when I walked faster, and was giving off completely creeptastic vibes.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not really. It's just your perception of who you are--your identity, beliefs, etc.

Weird thing to seize on.

How does that work when the internal perception is in direct and complete opposition to observable reality?

 

[Thermal]

ORLY? How does your wonderful state determine which male with a transgender identity is legitimately allowed to use the female restroom, and which is not?

The ones who identify as transwomen or nonbinary or whatever are allowed. Those who identify as cismales were never actually denied in the first place. Might have mentioned this a few dozen times.

What paperwork are they required to provide to support their legal identity?

None. That's the point of selfID. You don't need to show your papers for being who you are.

NOBODY CAN READ YOUR MIND SO NOBODY KNOWS IF YOU'RE LYING OR NOT!

Correct. And?

Seriously, how many times can you ask the same question, get an answer, ignore the answer, and ask the same question a few pages later?

 

[Emily's Cat]

We all have hierarchies of identify. Someone might consider herself a skeptic, for example. We all have beliefs. You can't tell what these are via physical examination.

This is just silly posturing.

Your silly posturing is supporting the position where someone's internal beliefs are supposed to override observable reality and make everyone else interact with them as if they're the thing they believe they are even when we can see that they absolutely clearly are NOT.

 

[Thermal]

And yet you continue to be the only person in this thread using derogatory slurs.

As I've said many many many before, please google the word 'sardonic'.

 

[mumblethrax]

Are you seriously splitting hairs on the difference between conviction rates and incarceration rates?

No, that's not the problem, and the figures cited were not incarceration rates.

It's entirely reasonable and appropriate for us to infer that the rate of sexual offending for males is at least as high as the proportion of males in the population who are currently incarcerated for sexual offenses.

Sure, once you actually have that measure. That's not the inference that has been made, however.

In both cases, we end up with solid statistical data that correctly communicates that males are a significantly higher risk to females than the other way around, and furthermore we can correctly conclude that males with a transgender identity pose a materially higher risk than males without a transgender identity.

No, you end up with an innumerate accounting for a bogus statistic that is being disseminated for the purpose of fearmongering.

Again, splitting hairs. If a restroom allows both males and females to use it, then it is definitionally unisex.

No. Everyone is permitted to use unisex bathrooms. That's not the case with gender-segregated bathrooms. And it's not how people treat them.