Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

d4m10n said:
If you say you aren't cis, then you are not cis.

(That's how self-i.d. works.)
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Self-id is concerned with identification at a point of interaction with officialdom. Or a point of non-interaction, as is usually the case with public bathrooms.

It's not true that we can't conclude that someone is being disingenuous about how they identify themselves given a pattern of behavior over time.
 
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mumblethrax said:
Self-id is concerned with identification at a point of interaction with officialdom. Or a point of non-interaction, as is usually the case with public bathrooms.

It's not true that we can't conclude that someone is being disingenuous about how they identify themselves given a pattern of behavior over time.
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Eddie Izzard has stated that they are transgender. So has Darren Merager, and Hannah Tubbs (got the wrong name earlier), and Dylan Mulvaney, and Isla Bryson. What pattern of behavior would you uses to determine which of those are genuine and which are not?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Eddie Izzard has stated that they are transgender. So has Darren Merager, and Hannah Tubbs (got the wrong name earlier), and Dylan Mulvaney, and Isla Bryson.
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So has Graham Linehan.

What pattern of behavior would you uses to determine which of those are genuine and which are not?
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Well, an obvious one would be whether they consistently identify as trans.
 
Emily's Cat said:
This is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ and you should ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ know it. Throughout the overwhelming majority of my life AND YOURS the word "woman" was understood to be synonymous with female human being, and at no point during that time did ANYONE AT ALL think that "woman" meant "person of either sex who likes to wear spinny skirts". It's absolutely ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ absurd of you to play this game that somehow "woman" has always meant some ephemeral gendery soul feeling that anyone can have. It's absolutely untrue and you know it. This is so far beyond disingenuous that I'm struggling to take you seriously.

FFS. Now you're playing the same idiotic linguistic game that p0lka was, pretending like if the sign used the specific word "female" everything would magically be fixed. You know it's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Thermal, don't pretend like you think this makes sense.

Again, ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. You're pretending that the appropriation of a word within the last two minutes somehow means that it has changed in all cases across the entire goddamned world. You ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ KNOW that the word "women" on the restroom door uses the FIRST definition, you KNOW it has NEVER meant "anyone who says they have womanly feelings inside their heads".

◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. I refuse to surrender the word "woman" so that it can only mean some mystical feeling that males can appropriate in order to violate female boundaries.

You have never actually given a reasonable or coherent answer. All your answers have been wishy-washy sidestepping and tapdancing. So far as I can tell, you're doing your damnedest to avoid having to acknowledge that you want to give some males special extra privileges regardless of how much this ◊◊◊◊◊ over real women.

There's no such thing as an "imposter" transgender identified male because LITERALLY the only thing that makes them transgender in the first place is that they said the magical phrase!
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QFT!
It's been a fascinating journey watching the sycophantic TRA-allies in this thread playing a real life game of "Twister", turning themselves into pretzels as they desperately try to reconcile all their contradictory pronouncements.
Its been both awesome and entertaining to watch.
 
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Did the Turkish sultans or Chinese emperors view their eunuchs the same as their concubines or as castrated men?
 
mumblethrax said:
This has already happened and has been the status quo for years. In NYC, for around two decades. The waiting period is over, and the data is in.
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And that data is based on reporting of crimes to build the statistical base. But when the reporting is skewed by the fact that when a transgender identified male commits a crime, the crime statistics report it as a woman who commits the crime, so when a transgender identified male assaults a woman under any circumstances, it is reported as a woman attacking a woman. Guess what happens as a result of this? Yes, you see no increase in transgender crime.
In California, AB953, the Racial & Identity Profiling Act does not mandate the collection of data as to the transgender status of suspects
oag.ca.gov

AB 953: The Racial and Identity Profiling Act of 2015

Eliminating racial and identity profiling in law enforcement requires everyone’s participation! RACIAL and IDENTITY PROFILING ACT (RIPA) of 2015 (AB 953) The Racial and Identity Profiling Act of 2015: Prohibits racial and identity profiling by law enforcement. Requires law enforcement agencies...
oag.ca.gov oag.ca.gov
In fact, any attempt to do so is considered to be profiling, which can and does result in consequences for those involved in the collection of such data. The effect of this is that California police are generally not permitted to routinely record a suspect's transgender status due to the because RIPA makes it difficult or impossible for officers to do so. New York and New Jersey have similar policies under the SPRRC.
When the collection of data is filtered at source, the resulting statistics are unreliable.
Fortunately, the UK has no such restructions, so the true picture is allowed to emerge

Trans Crime UK – Documenting crimes committed by transgender individuals in the UK

transcrimeuk.com
mumblethrax said:
Personally, I'm against women being assaulted or harassed by anyone.
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Good to know, but it's a shame you seem willing to put them at risk by allowing people with a proven higher risk of sexual predation to access to their safe spaces.
 
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smartcooky said:
And that data is based on reporting of crimes to build the statistical base. But when the reporting is skewed by the fact that when a transgender identified male commits a crime, the crime statistics report it as a woman who commits the crime, so when a transgender identified male assaults a woman under any circumstances, it is reported as a woman attacking a woman.
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This is irrelevant. You don't see an increase in assaults at all.

Good to know, but it's a shame you seem willing to put them at risk by allowing people with a proven higher risk of sexual predation to access to their safe spaces.
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Public bathrooms are not safe spaces. If a woman was being followed by a suspicious man at night, just about the last place I'd advise her to duck into is a public bathroom. There are usually no means of egress other than the way you go in, and it's just about the only public space these days that isn't plastered with cameras.

As already mentioned, the evidence does not support the idea that allowing transwomen to use the women's room puts women at greater risk, so I'm afraid you can't impute that willingness on me.
 
mumblethrax said:
This is irrelevant. You don't see an increase in assaults at all.
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Evidence
mumblethrax said:
Public bathrooms are not safe spaces. If a woman was being followed by a suspicious man at night, just about the last place I'd advise her to duck into is a public bathroom. There are usually no means of egress other than the way you go in, and it's just about the only public space these days that isn't plastered with cameras.
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I see... she was asking for it... amirite?
mumblethrax said:
As already mentioned, the evidence does not support the idea that allowing transwomen to use the women's room puts women at greater risk
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Evidence
mumblethrax said:
so I'm afraid you can't impute that willingness on me.
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I can, and I have!
 
smartcooky said:
Evidence
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link.springer.com

Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms - Sexuality Research and Social Policy

Legislation, regulations, litigation, and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access for transgender people increased drastically in the last three years. Opponents of gender identity inclusive public accommodations nondiscrimination laws often cite fear of safety and privacy...
link.springer.com link.springer.com

This study compares crime rates in restrooms across similar localities that have an have not adopted gender identity non-discrimination laws.

Note that it's "crime rates" and not "crimes committed by men against women."

I see... she was asking for it... amirite?
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No, you're not right. This is nonsensical in addition to being dishonest.

I can, and I have!
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Not successfully. Not if you have a shred of integrity. I'm happy to concede that you don't if that's the way you want to go.
 
mumblethrax said:
link.springer.com

Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms - Sexuality Research and Social Policy

Legislation, regulations, litigation, and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access for transgender people increased drastically in the last three years. Opponents of gender identity inclusive public accommodations nondiscrimination laws often cite fear of safety and privacy...
link.springer.com link.springer.com

This study compares crime rates in restrooms across similar localities that have an have not adopted gender identity non-discrimination laws.
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And again, I will post the information you snipped out and ignored from my previous post


2. Ministry of Justice 2020 Data​
The question of whether transwomen match male or female patterns of criminality is specifically addressed by the 2020 FOI referenced by Fair Play For Women (who have submitted evidence to the Committee). This is first time there has been official data to compare the rate of sex offending in 3 different groups. Men vs women vs transwomen.​
​
MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis).​
Here is the number compared with figures for sex offending rates in men and women over the same period.​
​
Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent​
official count of transgender prisoners):​
​
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%​
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%​
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%​

The rate of sex offending among transgender identified males is 3.5 times that of non- transgender males
The rate of sex offending among transgender identified males is 17.8 times that of females

These higher rates of sexual offending by transgender identified males do not happen in a vacuum. They are CLEAR, UNEQUIVOCAL, IRREFUTABLE proof that transgender identified males are not only dangerous to women, they are far more dangerous to women than are non-transgender men, and more than 18 times more dangerous to women than other women.

If the study you posted shows the a result that differs significantly from the result of factual, actual counted numbers that contain NO estimates, NO polls and sample sizes of 100% of the total prison population then your referenced study is deficient. That deficiency is most likely to be down to one or more of three probable causes...
1. Large numbers of unreported sexual assaults.
2. A large margin for error due to poorly chosen samples.
3. Deficiency causes by pre-filtering of data by those collecting it.

When there's that much difference between a statistical study, and real world numbers, one needs to look closely at the sources

My source are contains actual, counted numbers. Error bars are zero.
Your source is a study published by three people (red flags highlighted in red)

Amira Hasenbush: Transgender advocate and Co-founder of "All Parenting Legal", a family law practice in California that provides legal support and advocacy specifically for LGBTQ+ and non-traditional families Their transgender advocacy focus is on assisting transgender individuals and families navigate family law matters and protecting queer and solo-parent families. Co-Authored "Transgender Parenting" with Jody L Herman

Jody L. Herman: Transgender advocate and Williams Institute Scholar of Public Policy at UCLA School of Law. Her research has included studies of the fiscal impacts of discrimination against transgender people, employer-provided health benefits coverage for gender transition, the development of questions to identify gender minorities on population-based surveys, and minority stress, health, and suicidality among transgender people.

Andrew R. Flores: Associate Professor of Goverment at the School of Public Affairs and a Visiting Scholar at the Williams Institute at the UCLA School of Law. His research focuses on attitude formation, attitude change, and public policies affecting LGBTQ populations.

There is a whole slew of red flags in the profiles of these three. They are obvious questions of bias in favour of their own works and research. I would regard the results of any transgender research published by this lot in the same regard as research on the causes of autism publish by Andrew Wakefield.

mumblethrax said:
No, you're not right. This is nonsensical in addition to being dishonest.
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On the contrary "Public bathrooms are not safe spaces" for women is functionally equivalent to saying "If you go in there you are asking for it" which is just a short distance from "If you go out dressed like that, you're asking for it". Its victim-blaming of the worst kind. A woman SHOULD be able to feel, and be, safe in ANY public space. Telling women they should, not go in there is a cop out.

And as I have shown you earlier, if you are a woman, and the biological male behind you is a transgender identified male, he is 3.5 times more likely to be a sexual predator than if he was an ordinary non-transgender male.

mumblethrax said:
Not successfully. Not if you have a shred of integrity. I'm happy to concede that you don't if that's the way you want to go.
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I am calling it how I see it. If you had a shred of decency and consideration for women, you would withdraw your earlier remark.
 
smartcooky said:
And again, I will post the information you snipped out and ignored from my previous post
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I omitted it because it's irrelevant. Once you know that gender identity non-discrimination law don't, in practice, increase rates of sexual assaults in public bathrooms, the relative propensity for violence of transwoman is neither here nor there.

You're favoring the hypothesis over the evidence that disconfirms the hypothesis.

On the contrary "Public bathrooms are not safe spaces" for women is functionally equivalent to saying "If you go in there you are asking for it"
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This is braindead. As an obvious counterexample, if you point out that coed prisons are not safe spaces, it does not follow that you are saying "If you commit a crime and are sent to that prison, you are asking for it." Identification of danger is not equivalent to apportioning blame.

And as I have shown you earlier, if you are a woman, and the biological male behind you is a transgender identified male, he is 3.5 times more likely to be a sexual predator than if he was an ordinary non-transgender male.
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You didn't show me that.

I am calling it how I see it.
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No, you are desperately throwing ◊◊◊◊ at the wall because you lack confidence in your own arguments.
 
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mumblethrax said:
Once you know that gender identity non-discrimination law don't, in practice, increase rates of sexual assaults in public bathrooms, the relative propensity for violence of transwoman is neither here nor there.
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Why is the incidence of sexual assaults the only criterion that matters? What about the incidence of exhibitionism and voyeurism? Oh of course, they are no longer crimes, provided they're committed in what used to be female only spaces.

What about all the females (especially those who have been victims of male sexual violence) who have stopped going to gyms, swimming pools etc because they no longer contain female only facilities? Why are the feelings of males who are required to use the sex segregated facilities allocated for their sex rather than their self identified gender so much more important than theirs that they MUST be given priority?
 
Pixel42 said:
Why is the incidence of sexual assaults the only criterion that matters?
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It isn't. Which is why I cited a study that compared crime rates and found no significant difference.

Oh of course, they are no longer crimes, provided they're committed in what used to be female only spaces.
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More dishonest imputation.

What about all the females (especially those who have been victims of male sexual violence) who have stopped going to gyms, swimming pools etc because they no longer contain female only facilities? Why are the feelings of males who are required to use the sex segregated facilities allocated for their sex rather than their self identified gender so much more important than theirs that they MUST be given priority?
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I'm talking about bathrooms, and they aren't given priority. They're given equal access/consideration.
 
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