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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Given the Swedish Navy have prime authority over the official dives, and Finland together with Sweden (due to it being in Finnish waters) act as coastguards. All their dives are closely project managed and reported on. It should be very obvious that anyone else's dives are ipso facto 'secret dives'. You don't know what the heck they are doing down there. We know about Rabe, Bemis, Evertsson and Kum because they have publicised it. You nor Axxman are able to state there are no secret dives when theoretically, you can hop on a German boat under a German flag, wave the coastguards away and do your own thing, with no-one being none the wiser.
Absolute nonsense.

A dive like that requires a large boat with lots of gear and staying in the exact spot that the Estonia sank in. Even if they told the coastguard to go away it would be painfully obvious what they were doing.
 
How does stopping a diving vessel over the wreck site and waving away the coastguard mean no-one being none the wiser about what you're doing?
It doesn't change the salient point of no-one knows what that person is doing around the wreck. That was the thrust of the argument, that it's not possible for unauthorised divers to access it...and here we go back to my original point: turn up in a German boat under a German flag, being sure to set off from a country other than those eight 'Baltic' countries listed under the Treaty. <sfx Here we go round in circles to nowhere, Mulber-ry Bush>
 
Did the Swedish government deny the Egyptians had ever been in Sweden? Nope.
Did the Swedish government deny they had applied for asylum there? Nope.
Did no lawyer ever represent the men, or never learn they had been hastily and unlawfully deported? Nope.

So that case does not provide you with any support for your crazy story about the impossible rescue and secret unlawful rendition, for no credible reason, of the obviously drowned Estonia officers. It's a stupid spy fantasy that doesn't stand up for multiple reasons.
They were literally whipped off the street aka kidnapped, with no due process. No-one knew where they were. The guy's lawyer eventually managed to track them down. In the UK, even the most heinous criminal due for deportation is entitled to have a hearing to argue their case and to be notified, and their families notified with a notice period, together with an indication of where they are being deported to. Your attempt to make out what Sweden did for the CIA as being in anyway normal or commonplace* is risible.

*(well, maybe it is now in Trump's USA)
 
It takes two to communicate, so a Simonton gap also involves the difficulty of communicating effectively with those who are more intelligent.

I am not expressing any opinion regarding who is smarter than whom. I am not even suggesting any inability to communicate we might see within this thread can be attributed to a Simonton gap. I am merely pointing to a logical consequence of any Simonton gap that might be postulated, mainly in hope that Simonton gaps not be postulated when miscommunications can be explained less exotically.
This is why, if you don't follow a post or understand the logic, instead of calling that person names, just ask for clarification instead of assuming the other person is a wrongdoer and loudly proclaiming it.
 
They were literally whipped off the street aka kidnapped, with no due process. No-one knew where they were. The guy's lawyer eventually managed to track them down. In the UK, even the most heinous criminal due for deportation is entitled to have a hearing to argue their case and to be notified, and their families notified with a notice period, together with an indication of where they are being deported to. Your attempt to make out what Sweden did for the CIA as being in anyway normal or commonplace* is risible.

*(well, maybe it is now in Trump's USA)
No one is claiming it is normal or commonplace. That is you lying about what people say again. You claimed they were disappeared. If someone says that no, they were not you cannot then claim that the person said it was normal and yet that is what you have done repeatedly. You have on this specific point repeatedly and openly lied about what people have said.
 
Pride in operating a vessel that can't be called a floating death trap only because it failed to accomplish the "floating" part?

Pride in either demanding a captain in their employ disregard prudent safety measures to keep a schedule, or allowing a captain in their employ to do so on his own whim?

Pride in lax maintenance and careless operation that sent 852 people to their deaths?

Pride in the deadliest peacetime disaster at sea in over a century?

Pride in having ended children's lives in terrifying conditions of darkness, confinement, and icy cold?

No sane moral person should have pride in this.

No sane moral person should be spinning the narrative to preserve someone else's pride in this.
What is being disputed here is the cause of the accident. Now, the JAIC assumed an intact hull, so it had to hypothesize a scenario where a huge ingress of water managed to breach the superstructure. i.e., it put forward an explanation that windows on Deck 4 must have smashed and that is how. This is because even with >2,000 tonnes <6,000 tonnes of water filling the car deck, even the JAIC realised that would not be enough to make it sink, with out it turning upside down first. However, it does work if as is argued, there was a breach in the hull. We know now there is a massive 22m gap in the hull. The explanation now is that this breach in the hull happened more recently due to the vessel turning 12° onto a 'rocky outcrop' and not because it was already there causing it to sink the way it did.
 
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What is being disputed here is the cause of the accident. Now, the JAIC assumed an intact hull, so it had to hypothesize a scenario where a huge ingress of water managed to breach the superstructure. i.e., it put forward an explanation that windows on Deck 4 must have smashed and that is how. This is because even with >2,000 tonnes <6,000 tonnes of water filling the car deck, even the JAIC realised that would not be enough to make it sink, with out it turning upside down first. However, it does work if as is argued, there ws a breach in the hull. We know now there is a massive 22m gap in the hull. The explanation now is that this breach int he hull happened more recently due to the vessel turning 12° onto a 'rocky outcrop' and not because it was already there causing it to sink the way it did.
You are not competent to assess the JAIC conclusions, nor are you competent to critique the process they used to reach that conclusion.

Oh and before you accuse me of insulting you, neither am I.
 
Now, the JAIC assumed an intact hull, so it had to hypothesize a scenario where a huge ingress of water managed to breach the superstructure. i.e., it put forward an explanation that windows on Deck 4 must have smashed and that is how.
No. "Intact hull" is a term of art having to do with stability models. The missing bow visor renders the hull no longer intact, and JAIC understood this. You are trying to make the JAIC sound desperate, but really you simply don't understand their hypothesis.

However, it does work if as is argued, there was a breach in the hull. We know now there is a massive 22m gap in the hull. The explanation now is that this breach in the hull happened more recently due to the vessel turning 12° onto a 'rocky outcrop' and not because it was already there causing it to sink the way it did.
This has been covered at length multiple times.
 
Don't be so disingenuous, I'm sure you're perfectly capable of using the little arrows to follow a chain of posts back. For the benefit of those who aren't 'triple nines', and who have difficulty with simple reading comprehension, though, here it is:







Your reply does nothing to address the point of Axxman's post, which is about the difficulty of mounting a secret dive that goes unnoticed. Instead, you witter on about who might be permitted to do it, because they are not signatories to a particular treaty.
I'm sure it does sound like wittering to you. Perhaps next time you don't understand something just ask for clarification; it is nothing to be ashamed of.
 
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As has been discussed at tedious length, this case is very clearly not the same thing as you wish to claim is "not far-fetched" about the Estonia.

There is no record of Sweden detaining or deporting the Estonia officers. There is nobody at all who ever met any of the missing officers after the sinking. There is no plausible reason the CIA or anyone else would want to cause the ferry's officers to disappear just as if they had simply drowned in the sinking, as they very clearly did.
There is the anomaly of how many people were rescued.
 
No, not whoosh. You claimed that it would be possible for there to have been dives no one knows about, remember?

Seriously?

SWEDISH COASTGUARD: Chap over there, says his name is Heinz Schmidt from Germany.
FINNISH COASTGUARD: Right, I'll just make a note of that on my crib sheet.
SARCASTIC GUY: So you saw him. So you saw a guy about to dive down to the wreckage.
COASTGUARD: I don't know how, but I saw him!
 
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