...Shall Not Be Infringed

[TragicMonkey]

I doubt that "the left" will substantially change their views on the value of the second amendment because of this ignorant comment by Trump. Their point on this issue is equal application of your constitution for all Americans. A concept that both you and your president have substantial difficulty with.

Some people have a principle that guns should be permitted, some people have a principle that guns should be restricted. Previously this was the entire conflict. Now, however, a new player has entered the fight, and their principle is whatever the king wants should happen.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Which laws?

How does a law protect my home from a burglar?

Well, imagine living in a country where there was no law against burglary. Now imagine one where there is a law, and people are employed with training and powers to enforce the law. Call them 'police'. I believe there would be much more burglary in the first country.

Now imagine a kind of halfway house where there is a law but people feel it would be better if everyone expected home owners to just kill burglars themselves. I suspect that would produce more anxiety, fear and dead people.

 

[Dabop]

Now imagine a kind of halfway house where there is a law but people feel it would be better if everyone expected home owners to just kill burglars themselves. I suspect that would produce more anxiety, fear and dead people.

You know, if I squint and look at it holding my head just right- you could almost be describing the USA....

Hell, who am I kidding....

It describes the US to a T....

 

[Thermal]

Well, imagine living in a country where there was no law against burglary. Now imagine one where there is a law, and people are employed with training and powers to enforce the law. Call them 'police'. I believe there would be much more burglary in the first country.

Now imagine a kind of halfway house where there is a law but people feel it would be better if everyone expected home owners to just kill burglars themselves. I suspect that would produce more anxiety, fear and dead people.

While your general point is sound, Mr Policeman and the laws he enforces have done exactly squat when I was victimized by crime, both dealing with it in real time, and the fallout. I've been on my own, every time. Even when my apartment was robbed, and they caught the guy and (most) of my belongings, the police decided to keep them.

 

[Steve]

While your general point is sound, Mr Policeman and the laws he enforces have done exactly squat when I was victimized by crime, both dealing with it in real time, and the fallout. I've been on my own, every time. Even when my apartment was robbed, and they caught the guy and (most) of my belongings, the police decided to keep them.

We have ample discussions on the vagaries of American law enforcement personnel in these forums. Be glad they didn't shoot you. Now:

1. Would you have shot the burglar if you had the opportunity?

2. Should a trans American have the opportunity to shoot a burglar in their home?

 

[Thermal]

We have ample discussions on the vagaries of American law enforcement personnel in these forums. Be glad they didn't shoot you. Now:

1. Would you have shot the burglar if you had the opportunity?

No, on general principle. I don't believe in having blood on my hands if I or someone else is not imminently in danger of serious injury. And I ain't got nothing of that value to steal.

{Eta: taking a baseball bat (or other improvised weapon) to his knees and/or arms might be on the table if he took a run at me}

2. Should a trans American have the opportunity to shoot a burglar in their home?

Kinda wish they wouldn't. Kinda wish that no one even considered shooting anyone unless the aforementioned grievous injury/death was actively presented.

To respond to what I think you are driving at, certainly, any trans person should have the same rights as I do.

 

[Steve]

No, on general principle. I don't believe in having blood on my hands if I or someone else is not imminently in danger of serious injury. And I ain't got nothing of that value to steal.

{Eta: taking a baseball bat (or other improvised weapon) to his knees and/or arms might be on the table if he took a run at me}

Kinda wish they wouldn't. Kinda wish that no one even considered shooting anyone unless the aforementioned grievous injury/death was actively presented.

To respond to what I think you are driving at, certainly, any trans person should have the same rights as I do.

Reasonable on all counts. I was just looking to bring the thread back on topic. I think it is quite interesting,

 

[Hercules56]

Well, imagine living in a country where there was no law against burglary. Now imagine one where there is a law, and people are employed with training and powers to enforce the law. Call them 'police'. I believe there would be much more burglary in the first country.

Now imagine a kind of halfway house where there is a law but people feel it would be better if everyone expected home owners to just kill burglars themselves. I suspect that would produce more anxiety, fear and dead people.

Police 10 minutes away does not protect me from a burglary, assault, rape, robbery, murder or kidnapping. All they can really be expected to do is arrive AFTER the crime has been committed.

Hopefully the victim is still alive and did not suffer permanent or mental damage once the cops get there.

Also, police are under no obligation to protect individuals from harm. So says the US Supreme Court.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Police 10 minutes away does not protect me from a burglary, assault, rape, robbery, murder or kidnapping.

Compared to not having police at all, yes it does, because such violent crimes are less likely to happen.

Compared to having both police 10 minutes away and guns in people's houses, that will increase the number of people protecting themselves from violent attack, but it also increases the number getting shot. It's not at all clear that option comes out ahead. I have read claims to the contrary.

 

[Hercules56]

Compared to not having police at all, yes it does, because such violent crimes are less likely to happen.

Compared to having both police 10 minutes away and guns in people's houses, that will increase the number of people protecting themselves from violent attack, but it also increases the number getting shot. It's not at all clear that option comes out ahead. I have read claims to the contrary.

Some people live 30+ minutes away from any possible police assistance. And don't forget police have the discretion to NOT respond to your calls for help, so says the Supreme Court.

Personally I like knowing that I have a firearm ready in case I tragically need it to protect myself or another from terrible harm.

 

[Steve]

Some people live 30+ minutes away from any possible police assistance. And don't forget police have the discretion to NOT respond to your calls for help, so says the Supreme Court.

Personally I like knowing that I have a firearm ready in case I tragically need it to protect myself or another from terrible harm.

These kinds of comments fascinate me. In all my 71 years I have never spent a moment worrying that a stranger, criminal or otherwise, might enter my home while I am there. It has never happened to myself or to anyone that I have ever known. The chances of it happening are so remote that the very concept of arming myself for protection during such an event approaches bizarre paranoia.

 

[Thermal]

These kinds of comments fascinate me. In all my 71 years I have never spent a moment worrying that a stranger, criminal or otherwise, might enter my home while I am there. It has never happened to myself or to anyone that I have ever known. The chances of it happening are so remote that the very concept of arming myself for protection during such an event approaches bizarre paranoia.

Just as a different perspective: I have had several strangers walk right in my front door. I once came home to two strange men standing in the living room of my otherwise empty house. A few years back, I was making coffee in the kitchen when the scrufftiest looking hombre you've ever seen charged through my front door right at me with a pipe wrench in hand. Just this summer, my wife was on the couch watching late afternoon TV and a strange man walked right in on her.

Full disclosure: I live in a beach town, where people rent houses for a week or so and literally forget which one they rented. The pipe wrench guy was winterizing the home next door and absent-mindedly jumped in the wrong one.

Only once, I had some late teen boys creep in around midnight. We had just bought the place and I was working late there and crashing on the floor to save travel time. I guess they thought they were sneaking onto an empty worksite. I was sleeping upstairs, and grabbed the nearest weapon I could find (some kind of crowbar or something) and ran downstairs. They spit out timid and flustered apologies and beat a hasty retreat. It occurred to me a few minutes later that since I was working on the house in summer without the A/C working yet, I was sleeping bare ass naked and that's how I confronted the lads.

 

[Thermal]

Police 10 minutes away does not protect me from a burglary, assault, rape, robbery, murder or kidnapping. All they can really be expected to do is arrive AFTER the crime has been committed.

Hopefully the victim is still alive and did not suffer permanent or mental damage once the cops get there.

Also, police are under no obligation to protect individuals from harm. So says the US Supreme Court.

Important distinctiion: they don't have a *Constitutional* duty to do so. Depending on their jurisdiction, they may have undertaken a sworn *civic* duty.

 

[Hercules56]

These kinds of comments fascinate me. In all my 71 years I have never spent a moment worrying that a stranger, criminal or otherwise, might enter my home while I am there. It has never happened to myself or to anyone that I have ever known. The chances of it happening are so remote that the very concept of arming myself for protection during such an event approaches bizarre paranoia.

You must live in a very wealthy place or a very isolated community full of only friendly & trustworthy people.

 

[Hercules56]

Just as a different perspective: I have had several strangers walk right in my front door. I once came home to two strange men standing in the living room of my otherwise empty house. A few years back, I was making coffee in the kitchen when the scrufftiest looking hombre you've ever seen charged through my front door right at me with a pipe wrench in hand. Just this summer, my wife was on the couch watching late afternoon TV and a strange man walked right in on her.

Full disclosure: I live in a beach town, where people rent houses for a week or so and literally forget which one they rented. The pipe wrench guy was winterizing the home next door and absent-mindedly jumped in the wrong one.

Only once, I had some late teen boys creep in around midnight. We had just bought the place and I was working late there and crashing on the floor to save travel time. I guess they thought they were sneaking onto an empty worksite. I was sleeping upstairs, and grabbed the nearest weapon I could find (some kind of crowbar or something) and ran downstairs. They spit out timid and flustered apologies and beat a hasty retreat. It occurred to me a few minutes later that since I was working on the house in summer without the A/C working yet, I was sleeping bare ass naked and that's how I confronted the lads.

That is some scary ◊◊◊◊.

 

[Thermal]

That is some scary ◊◊◊◊.

That's what the boys said on their way home.

Eta: most of the people are very confused and apologetic. Some just laugh it off and leave. A few were fun and easy on the eyes, so got invited to hang out, and did.

It would probably happen less if I actually locked the door.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Some people live 30+ minutes away from any possible police assistance. And don't forget police have the discretion to NOT respond to your calls for help, so says the Supreme Court.

Personally I like knowing that I have a firearm ready in case I tragically need it to protect myself or another from terrible harm.

We have people who live in more remote places too. Farmers for example. It's not at all unusual for farmers to have a shotgun. It's much more rare in towns and I'm broadly happy about that.

We also have a supreme court but so far as I know they haven't said it's not the police's duty to help anyone, so I suspect that's not a universal principle, just an oddity of where you live.

 

[junkshop]

Just as a different perspective: I have had several strangers walk right in my front door. I once came home to two strange men standing in the living room of my otherwise empty house. A few years back, I was making coffee in the kitchen when the scrufftiest looking hombre you've ever seen charged through my front door right at me with a pipe wrench in hand. Just this summer, my wife was on the couch watching late afternoon TV and a strange man walked right in on her.

Full disclosure: I live in a beach town, where people rent houses for a week or so and literally forget which one they rented. The pipe wrench guy was winterizing the home next door and absent-mindedly jumped in the wrong one.

Only once, I had some late teen boys creep in around midnight. We had just bought the place and I was working late there and crashing on the floor to save travel time. I guess they thought they were sneaking onto an empty worksite. I was sleeping upstairs, and grabbed the nearest weapon I could find (some kind of crowbar or something) and ran downstairs. They spit out timid and flustered apologies and beat a hasty retreat. It occurred to me a few minutes later that since I was working on the house in summer without the A/C working yet, I was sleeping bare ass naked and that's how I confronted the lads.

Have you considered locking your doors?

 

[Thermal]

Have you considered locking your doors?

No. Why do you ask?.

 

[Hercules56]

We have people who live in more remote places too. Farmers for example. It's not at all unusual for farmers to have a shotgun. It's much more rare in towns and I'm broadly happy about that.

We also have a supreme court but so far as I know they haven't said it's not the police's duty to help anyone, so I suspect that's not a universal principle, just an oddity of where you live.

What part of the USA do you live?