Sustainable Fuels

[Rolfe]

My neighbor use to have the Ford F150 Lightning. He loved it and hated it. He loved it the way it drives. He liked the V2L. But he hates the way it discharges faster than they promote it. For example, the computer will tell him he has 300 miles of charge and after 75 miles it will tell him he has 150 miles left.

Perhaps he needs to do a long charge to calibrate the GoM.

 

[dirtywick]

Yes. Because they are small. Very very small. Very large things sometimes become impractical.as they scale much larger. I think this might be one of those times.

forklift batteries aren't small

 

[Thermal]

forklift batteries aren't small

Compared to the kind of power needs we are kicking around, they are. A forklift in a warehouse has relatively low range and low power needs, compared to say an excavator in a rural enviromment.

 

[dirtywick]

Compared to the kind of power needs we are kicking around, they are. A forklift in a warehouse has relatively low range and low power needs, compared to say an excavator in a rural enviromment.

they're like 3 foot side cubes and weigh 1000 pounds

 

[Thermal]

they're like 3 foot side cubes and weigh 1000 pounds

And some are much larger and heavier. Yet very small compared to the kind of power needs we are discussing, that would need to be swapped in a rural environment.

 

[dirtywick]

And some are much larger and heavier. Yet very small compared to the kind of power needs we are discussing, that would need to be swapped in a rural environment.

ok, is there any reason why you can't swap multiple smaller batteries in sizes you think are manageable?

 

[theprestige]

ok, is there any reason why you can't swap multiple smaller batteries in sizes you think are manageable?

Each battery requires its own mounting bracket, its own connection, its own access hatch. That's a lot of extra weight and space, reducing payload and performance.

I'm thinking @Thermal makes some good points, that I hadn't properly considered.

 

[dirtywick]

i think those are problems that can be engineered away. forklift batteries don't have brackets, the seat flips up, it has a quick connect connection, you hook it up to a hoist and pick it up and move it, pick the new battery up, drop it in, plug it in, put the seat down. it doesn't need to be more complicated than that imo

 

[8enotto]

Or it could be the same space a 5'+ long diesel engine and 300 gallon fuel tank once occupied.
I have actually worked on big yellow machines at a repair shop. Including a D8K dozer multiple times.

Weight is what makes these machines effective. It means traction and stability.

 

[Thermal]

Each battery requires its own mounting bracket, its own connection, its own access hatch. That's a lot of extra weight and space, reducing payload and performance.

I'm thinking @Thermal makes some good points, that I hadn't properly considered.

I think that posters here are thinking in terms of cordless drill batteries, and how easy they are to deal with. I'm thinking about heavy equipment in rural areas, far away from an aircraft hangar sized charging/swap out facility with the necessary machinery.

In the field, when you run low on fuel, a pickup truck can head out with a barrel of diesel. Happens all the time. I'm picturing being royally screwed if your battery depletes earlier than expected and you are on some remote clearing site where the battery switching cranes are not available.

I mean, it's a great idea with promise, but battery technology would have to radically change, packing more wattage in a smaller package.

As an aside, thanks for fairly considering my POV.

 

[ahhell]

Coincidentally there's a current thread on the EV forum where I'm a moderator where members are extolling the virtues of their battery powered electric mowers and questioning why anyone in their right mind would buy a petrol or diesel one nowadays.

Why use electric, a push real mower is fine or get rid of your lawn.

That being said, why anyone still uses any gas-powered yard car tools is a mystery. I guess if you have a yard big enough to justify a tractor, otherwise why does the owner want to be so close to a really loud noise when they don't have to be? And don't get me started on gas powered leaf blowers.

Thermal is not wrong though, different story for more industrial equipment.

Also, ACbyTesla is correct about battery swapping in warehouse situation. Its been common at least since the 90s for electric forklifts to just swap out batteries at the end of a shift.

 

[Thermal]

Why use electric, a push real mower is fine or get rid of your lawn.

I had a reel push mower for a few years. Worked like gangbusters on healthy grass, useless on weeds or rye stalks.

That being said, why anyone still uses any gas-powered yard car tools is a mystery.

I sometimes have to cut down overgrown building lots. A 40v (alright, technically 36v) electric mower just whimpers and cuts out in the deep stuff. A twenty year old cheap gas mower plows right through.

And don't get me started on gas powered leaf blowers.

Word. I have a blower to get the stray clippings off the sidewalk, but it sucks down the battery fast.

 

[dirtywick]

I think that posters here are thinking in terms of cordless drill batteries, and how easy they are to deal with. I'm thinking about heavy equipment in rural areas, far away from an aircraft hangar sized charging/swap out facility with the necessary machinery.

In the field, when you run low on fuel, a pickup truck can head out with a barrel of diesel. Happens all the time. I'm picturing being royally screwed if your battery depletes earlier than expected and you are on some remote clearing site where the battery switching cranes are not available.

I mean, it's a great idea with promise, but battery technology would have to radically change, packing more wattage in a smaller package.

As an aside, thanks for fairly considering my POV.

doesn’t take an aircraft hanger to swap out a battery. a small crane could do it, using equipment and people that are used to operating heavy equipment and moving heavy things around. to lift something that weights a thousand pounds in their air should be trivial in a scenario like that. that’s the easiest part of this, getting the batteries up there and keeping them charged would imo be the real challenge.

and you could just as easily drive a pickup truck with a charger on it to the site if you can bring fuel there.

 

[Thermal]

doesn’t take an aircraft hanger to swap out a battery. a small crane could do it, using equipment and people that are used to operating heavy equipment and moving heavy things around. to lift something that weights a thousand pounds in their air should be trivial in a scenario like that. that’s the easiest part of this, getting the batteries up there and keeping them charged would imo be the real challenge.

Dude... the batteries for heavy equipment wouldn't be a paltry thousand pounds. That's what I meant by comparing with a Cybertruck. It's a glorified sedan, and it's rocking 3/4 of a ton of inaccessible batteries. An excavator needs dramatically more. Like tons, plural.

Look at an excavator. Then look at a little forklift. And picture not being on a nice concrete slab with cranes and batteries on easy to access shelves. Rural work is a different gig.

and you could just as easily drive a pickup truck with a charger on it to the site if you can bring fuel there.

A charger? To charge for hours?

And no, the pickup is easy because you load an empty tank in the bed, get it filled and drive to location, where it is refueled by a hose. No one is in the position of lifting multi ton batteries on a dirt lot.

 

[ahhell]

I had a reel push mower for a few years. Worked like gangbusters on healthy grass, useless on weeds or rye stalks.

I sometimes have to cut down overgrown building lots. A 40v (alright, technically 36v) electric mower just whimpers and cuts out in the deep stuff. A twenty year old cheap gas mower plows right through.

Word. I have a blower to get the stray clippings off the sidewalk, but it sucks down the battery fast.

You obviously have a bigger yard than I do, so yes your results may vary. I do find my batter leaf blower Lasts trhough several mowings and is more than enough for a charge to get all leaves in fall.

Surely though, we must have the battery technology to a point where we can replace the blowers with the ICE on a backpack with a backpack of batteries?

 

[Thermal]

You obviously have a bigger yard than I do, so yes your results may vary. I do find my batter leaf blower Lasts trhough several mowings and is more than enough for a charge to get all leaves in fall.

Surely though, we must have the battery technology to a point where we can replace the blowers with the ICE on a backpack with a backpack of batteries?

I think the landscapers prefer gas for a reason. Pound for pound, they prefer the two stroke for the power and gas it back up at the truck as needed, and refill gas tanks quickly on the road, rather than cart batteries around to last you all day.

 

[Rolfe]

No doubt. But the Earth's climate is changing, and not in a good way, and the emissions from internal combustion engines are contributing significantly to that. They can't be allowed to go on "preferring" contributing to this indefinitely. They are going to have to look at viable alternatives as they are developed.

 

[dirtywick]

Dude... the batteries for heavy equipment wouldn't be a paltry thousand pounds. That's what I meant by comparing with a Cybertruck. It's a glorified sedan, and it's rocking 3/4 of a ton of inaccessible batteries. An excavator needs dramatically more. Like tons, plural.

Look at an excavator. Then look at a little forklift. And picture not being on a nice concrete slab with cranes and batteries on easy to access shelves. Rural work is a different gig.

again i dont feel like picking up thousands of pounds is a problem when everything there is designed to lift and move heavy things.

A charger? To charge for hours?

no for enough time to drive over to get the battery changed. you don’t need a full charge to do that.

And no, the pickup is easy because you load an empty tank in the bed, get it filled and drive to location, where it is refueled by a hose. No one is in the position of lifting multi ton batteries on a dirt lot.

load a charger onto a pickup. charge enough to move, move it.

obviously there’s disadvantages to batteries as things stand, but as things stand you also can’t burn fossil fuels indefinitely. i’m not trying to sell it as better. but you’re making these sound like insurmountable problems. yeah, it’s less convenient, i agree.

anyway i feel like we’re both repeating ourselves.

edit

also i don't know how big a battery for an excavator would be, but probably not as big as you think. most of the digging related stuff is handled by hydraulics, and keeping a hydraulic pump running isn't really that huge of a draw. we have a 20 year old 12k forklift with a 40v lead battery at my job, and granted this is on flat concrete, but you can drive it and move thousands of pounds of equipment all day, and swap the battery if you need, and do that 24/7. the difference to me is moving the thing around through the terrain, as far as lifting and moving and doing work, whether it's electric or gas powering the hydraulics it's not much different imo

 

[8enotto]

I think the landscapers prefer gas for a reason. Pound for pound, they prefer the two stroke for the power and gas it back up at the truck as needed, and refill gas tanks quickly on the road, rather than cart batteries around to last you all day.

Two stroke for power to weight ratio. Rough lots with brush and rocks everywhere.
Four stroke for endurance and efficiency on bigger lawns

Battery for small yards with varied needs, a bit of bushes to trim, some edging with a trimmer and a mower for the lawn.
A way to clean it up and cart out waste.

Everything has a place. One battery trims around the house and yard. Edges and a bit of hedge. One tank in the mower does the entire lawn.
My yard is easy.

The outside yards all have thier own details. Tree trimming often is part of them.

Push reel mowers only work on smooth, well maintained yards. The last I did with one I had to rake up gravel from kids playing, every time. Frustrating old lady on top of it.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Two stroke for power to weight ratio. Rough lots with brush and rocks everywhere.
Four stroke for endurance and efficiency on bigger lawns

Battery for small yards with varied needs, a bit of bushes to trim, some edging with a trimmer and a mower for the lawn.
A way to clean it up and cart out waste.

Everything has a place. One battery trims around the house and yard. Edges and a bit of hedge. One tank in the mower does the entire lawn.
My yard is easy.

The outside yards all have thier own details. Tree trimming often is part of them.

Push reel mowers only work on smooth, well maintained yards. The last I did with one I had to rake up gravel from kids playing, every time. Frustrating old lady on top of it.

The elephant in the room here is - why do you have such a big yard that needs so much attention?

One of the reasons I moved house back in 2016 was because I had a small house on a large section and maintaining it was a pain. I removed the hedge and trees, but even just mowing the grass had to be done in two sessions because the bin wasn't big enough to take all the grass clippings. Now I have a small section and a little electric mower that does it in 10 minutes. Last week I chopped out one tree that was becoming a pain, and the bottlebrush might follow if it doesn't behave.

My friends who live on a rural property have 3 electric mowers - a robot mower for the hilly part, a self-propelled rotary mower for around the house, and a ride-on mower for the paddock (they used to have sheep, but got bored with having to look after them). You might ask why when gas powered mowers would do the job? I drove their ride-on gas mower a few times and it was horrible. The electric mower is so much nicer to drive that you actually enjoy it, rather than putting the job off. I find the same with my little mower.