Sustainable Fuels

[theprestige]

Because we were discussing switching batteries out in trucks as a rural alternative. I recalled that even the Itty bitty homeowner class Cybertruck has a freaking 3/4 ton array, far less than what would be needed for actual working trucks in rural areas. And they are, by necessity, under the vehicle, as the user needs the upper part accesable for use. And we are proposing switching out batteries daily like it's nothing?

Gosh, if only you'd mentioned the weight, rather than the location, as a problem.

My view is that vehicles that do actually useful work (i.e., profitable work) will be designed and built alongside the enabling profitable infrastructure.

If battery-powered industrial vehicles are the future, then I expect that swappable batteries and associated tooling will be developed. I doubt any interested industry will stall out because they somehow believe the Cybertruck is a limiting factor.

 

[novaphile]

Coincidentally there's a current thread on the EV forum where I'm a moderator where members are extolling the virtues of their battery powered electric mowers and questioning why anyone in their right mind would buy a petrol or diesel one nowadays.

I second that remark.

I'm a proud owner of a BEM (Battery Electric Mower) and I've never looked back.

Grass needs cutting? Instantly get the mower out, cut the grass, put it away.

No hassles with having to refuel (or go to the petrol station to buy more fuel), check oil (previous mower was a four stroke), fiddle with spark plug when it won't start, masking up because of the benzine in the exhaust, putting on ear protection, dealing with failed starter cords, noise, smoke, etc.

Now it's just click, whirrrrrrr, done.

Not to mention the lack of noise pollution, my neighbours probably can't even tell that I'm mowing the lawn.

 

[GlennB]

I second that remark.

I'm a proud owner of a BEM (Battery Electric Mower) and I've never looked back.

Grass needs cutting? Instantly get the mower out, cut the grass, put it away.

No hassles with having to refuel (or go to the petrol station to buy more fuel), check oil (previous mower was a four stroke), fiddle with spark plug when it won't start, masking up because of the benzine in the exhaust, putting on ear protection, dealing with failed starter cords, noise, smoke, etc.

Now it's just click, whirrrrrrr, done.

Not to mention the lack of noise pollution, my neighbours probably can't even tell that I'm mowing the lawn.

Yep, just as long as you've remembered to recharge the spare battery

 

[Orphia Nay]

If battery-powered industrial vehicles are the future, then I expect that swappable batteries and associated tooling will be developed.

E Hocking posted a video on the previous page of the company Nio doing just that in China with 2,000 battery swap stations.

 

[Thermal]

Gosh, if only you'd mentioned the weight, rather than the location, as a problem.

...I did. It was the first thing I mentioned. In the post you criticized. Am i not getting a joke?

My view is that vehicles that do actually useful work (i.e., profitable work) will be designed and built alongside the enabling profitable infrastructure.

If battery-powered industrial vehicles are the future, then I expect that swappable batteries and associated tooling will be developed. I doubt any interested industry will stall out because they somehow believe the Cybertruck is a limiting factor.

Sure, when we have magic batteries that fit in your wallet and can power a Saturn V, it'll be the bees knees. Ok. Agreed.

 

[acbytesla]

Because we were discussing switching batteries out in trucks as a rural alternative. I recalled that even the Itty bitty homeowner class Cybertruck has a freaking 3/4 ton array, far less than what would be needed for actual working trucks in rural areas. And they are, by necessity, under the vehicle, as the user needs the upper part accesable for use. And we are proposing switching out batteries daily like it's nothing?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I think the idea of swapping batteries is an alternative to charging the vehicle or say a piece of heavy equipment. That way they don't have to stop for a long charging session. After the swap, the discharged batteries are charged off line. I mean we do it with tools and ebikes.

The Cybertruck is a car parading as a truck.

 

[dirtywick]

i don’t see why you couldn’t do battery swap if it was designed around it. electric forklifts do it.

 

[Thermal]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I think the idea of swapping batteries is an alternative to charging the vehicle or say a piece of heavy equipment. That way they don't have to stop for a long charging session. After the swap, the discharged batteries are charged off line. I mean we do it with tools and ebikes.

Yes. We do. I know. We all know. And you can juggle such batteries because they are so small. The kind of array needed for a heavy duty vehicle would be massive, as would the equipment needed to switch out banks that weighed in the thousands of pounds. Said array would also probably need to be under the vehicle, as you need the top available for the work its doing. I'm simply pointing out that at the current level of technology, it seems impractical in a rural environment.

The Cybertruck is a car parading as a truck.

Yet again, that was the point. it's an Itty bitty homeowner truck, yet it's batteries weigh three quarters of a ton and are so large they need to be under the vehicle.Can you imagine what kind of batteries an excavator would require, and how often they would need switching when you are out in a rural wilderness?

 

[acbytesla]

i don’t see why you couldn’t do battery swap if it was designed around it. electric forklifts do it.

Battery swapping forklift
This method is common for operations with lead-acid batteries, which require long charging and cooling times.
Process: When a battery is drained, a forklift or other mechanical aid is used to remove the heavy, discharged battery and replace it with a fresh, fully charged one.
Pros:
Maximizes uptime and productivity by eliminating hours of charging downtime.
Ensures consistent power delivery throughout a shift, avoiding the performance sag that occurs in a draining lead-acid battery.
Cons:
Labor-intensive and hazardous: Swapping heavy lead-acid batteries requires special training and safety precautions due to the risk of acid splashes, electrical burns, and exposure to flammable hydrogen gas emitted during charging.
Requires infrastructure: An operation must invest in spare batteries, a dedicated charging room with proper ventilation, and specialized handling equipment.
Space intensive: A separate room is needed to house the charging stations and extra batteries, taking up valuable floor space. .

 

[Thermal]

i don’t see why you couldn’t do battery swap if it was designed around it. electric forklifts do it.

Yes. Because they are small. Very very small. Very large things sometimes become impractical.as they scale much larger. I think this might be one of those times.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes. We do. I know. We all know. And you can juggle such batteries because they are so small. The kind of array needed for a heavy duty vehicle would be massive, as would the equipment needed to switch out banks that weighed in the thousands of pounds. Said array would also probably need to be under the vehicle, as you need the top available for the work its doing. I'm simply pointing out that at the current level of technology, it seems impractical in a rural environment.

Yet again, that was the point. it's an Itty bitty homeowner truck, yet it's batteries weigh three quarters of a ton and are so large they need to be under the vehicle.Can you imagine what kind of batteries an excavator would require, and how often they would need switching when you are out in a rural wilderness?

I absolutely agree there are downsides. I can see battery swapping in niche applications like heavy equipment. Not exactly sure how it would work. But I see the possibilities.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I think the idea of swapping batteries is an alternative to charging the vehicle or say a piece of heavy equipment. That way they don't have to stop for a long charging session. After the swap, the discharged batteries are charged off line. I mean we do it with tools and ebikes.

Some electric trucks are already using swappable batteries. The battery is placed behind the cab where it is easy to swap out. However batteries are getting so good now that the extra expense of two batteries is becoming not worth it (unless you have another use for it). Another solution is powered trailers with their own batteries. It may take hours to load and unload a trailer, during which time it can be charging. Refrigerated trailers want their own power too. Trailers could also have solar panels on the roof and sides, providing a bit more energy while driving as well as when parked up. They could also be used purely as a power source in remote areas.

The Cybertruck is a car parading as a truck.

Ford's new electric truck will be too, as are some others ('truck' = separate body and chassis, 'car' = monocoque construction). But many trucks are only used as cars. The Cybertruck is what we in New Zealand and Australia call a 'ute'. It is as useful as a 'real' truck for many purposes.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Swapping heavy lead-acid batteries requires special training and safety precautions due to the risk of acid splashes, electrical burns, and exposure to flammable hydrogen gas emitted during charging.

Lead acid is ancient technology. They are still used in forklifts because they are cheap and you want the extra weight. For any other vehicle li-ion or LiFP is much preferable for lighter wight, faster charging, higher capacity and longer lifespan. Sodium-ion is another battery type that may replace Lead Acid because it is only bit more expensive (for the same usable capacity) while being much safer and having faster charging and longer lfespan.

 

[acbytesla]

Some electric trucks are already using swappable batteries. The battery is placed behind the cab where it is easy to swap out. However batteries are getting so good now that the extra expense of two batteries is becoming not worth it (unless you have another use for it). Another solution is powered trailers with their own batteries. It may take hours to load and unload a trailer, during which time it can be charging. Refrigerated trailers want their own power too. Trailers could also have solar panels on the roof and sides, providing a bit more energy while driving as well as when parked up. They could also be used purely as a power source in remote areas.

Ford's new electric truck will be too, as are some others ('truck' = separate body and chassis, 'car' = monocoque construction). But many trucks are only used as cars. The Cybertruck is what we in New Zealand and Australia call a 'ute'. It is as useful as a 'real' truck for many purposes.

My neighbor use to have the Ford F150 Lightning. He loved it and hated it. He loved it the way it drives. He liked the V2L. But he hates the way it discharges faster than they promote it. For example, the computer will tell him he has 300 miles of charge and after 75 miles it will tell him he has 150 miles left.

 

[theprestige]

My neighbor use to have the Ford F150 Lightning. He loved it and hated it. He loved it the way it drives. He liked the V2L. But he hates the way it discharges faster than they promote it. For example, the computer will tell him he has 300 miles of charge and after 75 miles it will tell him he has 150 miles left.

I don't understand the complaint. My ICE car's computer will do the exact same thing thing. The problem is me driving faster than optimum energy consumption, not a faulty computer.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't understand the complaint. My ICE car's computer will do the exact same thing thing. The problem is me driving faster than optimum energy consumption, not a faulty computer.

Sure, that could be reason. It just didn't work for him. He traded it in after one year. He's like me. Living off the grid. He saw it as much for extra power for his home in the winter. The V2L worked as advertised. But the problem is he would drive 60 miles just to recharge it. That deficit was just too much for how he wanted to use it.

 

[8enotto]

I have seen battery powered articulated loaders at an equipment show, at least in a video. In the US, Ohio possibly. It was a smaller machine at about 12 tons.
The run time was reported to be 10 hours on one charge.

I do not know if the battery was removable, but what would it take to make the battery a counterweight on next year's model? The site would already have other machines capable of lifting batteries anyway.

Heavier 50 ton machines could carry multiple batteries for longer run time. By then a type of battery resistant to extreme heat or cold could be adapted for optimal results. Depending on the site.

I already do this in the micro version with yard tools. Three tools, one type of battery and five batteries on site. Plus two chargers if a bigger job.
My support kit is a backpack where the bigger version would be a semi trailer or two.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

My neighbor use to have the Ford F150 Lightning. He loved it and hated it. He loved it the way it drives. He liked the V2L. But he hates the way it discharges faster than they promote it. For example, the computer will tell him he has 300 miles of charge and after 75 miles it will tell him he has 150 miles left.

Like many 'legacy' automakers, Ford has had problems getting their software to work properly. But gas vehicles have had similar issues and people don't mind because the traditional fuel gauge was never that accurate. Older vehicles had no 'guessometer' at all so you had to do your own guessing. Drivers got to know from experience how far they could get on a tank and always (or almost always) made sure they had extra.

Of course if you are carrying a large load or towing a trailer the range will go down, just like in a gas truck. EVs calculate range based on the energy used so there will be an inital adjustment as they recalibrate. That may be the main reason your neighbour's F-150 Lightning showed less range than 'expected'. Knowledgable drivers expect less range with a large load etc. However many people have very little awareness of how much energy a vehicle uses, so the extra information an EV provides spooks them out. They see the estimated range of 300 miles and think they will always get that, not appreciating the effect conditions may have on it.

He's like me. Living off the grid. He saw it as much for extra power for his home in the winter. The V2L worked as advertised. But the problem is he would drive 60 miles just to recharge it.

When I lived on the farm I had to always make sure I had at least 54 miles worth of gas before leaving town. With an EV it would be the opposite, except that I could recharge in town if need be. My Leaf only gets 50 miles range at best, so when I visit my rural friends I take the charging cable with me and top up when I get there. They don't mind because they have solar so it costs them nothing, but even grid electricity would cost less than $1.

The biggest problem with an EV is adjusting to the different way of operating it. Instead of remembering to top up at a gas station before going home, you top up at home and make sure you have enough to get back. My car is a lot more predictable than some of my other appliances. My cell phone has a nasty habit of getting stuck at full power and draining the battery in a few minutes (last time it did it was at 3am, for no apparent reason). My shaver gives no indication of charge remaining until it's flat, so I have to remember to recharge it every few days. Most people are aware that appliance battery life 'milage will vary' depending on usage, but then don't apply that knowledge to EVs.

 

[acbytesla]

I have seen battery powered articulated loaders at an equipment show, at least in a video. In the US, Ohio possibly. It was a smaller machine at about 12 tons.
The run time was reported to be 10 hours on one charge.

I do not know if the battery was removable, but what would it take to make the battery a counterweight on next year's model? The site would already have other machines capable of lifting batteries anyway.

Heavier 50 ton machines could carry multiple batteries for longer run time. By then a type of battery resistant to extreme heat or cold could be adapted for optimal results. Depending on the site.

I already do this in the micro version with yard tools. Three tools, one type of battery and five batteries on site. Plus two chargers if a bigger job.
My support kit is a backpack where the bigger version would be a semi trailer or two.

I'm never going to say no it wouldn't work. The question is does battery swapping fit the application. Companies have been swapping heavy lead acid batteries as a charging application for decades. And lithium batteries have five times the energy density of lead acid. And that is likely to increase two or threefold in the next ten years.

Out here in the woods I see D8 and D10 bulldozers as well as excavators that cut and buck trees. They use a lot of diesel. Battery swapping probably doesn't work for them. It's so easy for a normal pickup truck to have a 100 gallon tank with a pump to fill them up in the woods. As opposed to swapping and taking large batteries to and from some place to charge the swapped batteries.

 

[acbytesla]

Like many 'legacy' automakers, Ford has had problems getting their software to work properly. But gas vehicles have had similar issues and people don't mind because the traditional fuel gauge was never that accurate. Older vehicles had no 'guessometer' at all so you had to do your own guessing. Drivers got to know from experience how far they could get on a tank and always (or almost always) made sure they had extra.

Of course if you are carrying a large load or towing a trailer the range will go down, just like in a gas truck. EVs calculate range based on the energy used so there will be an inital adjustment as they recalibrate. That may be the main reason your neighbour's F-150 Lightning showed less range than 'expected'. Knowledgable drivers expect less range with a large load etc. However many people have very little awareness of how much energy a vehicle uses, so the extra information an EV provides spooks them out. They see the estimated range of 300 miles and think they will always get that, not appreciating the effect conditions may have on it.


When I lived on the farm I had to always make sure I had at least 54 miles worth of gas before leaving town. With an EV it would be the opposite, except that I could recharge in town if need be. My Leaf only gets 50 miles range at best, so when I visit my rural friends I take the charging cable with me and top up when I get there. They don't mind because they have solar so it costs them nothing, but even grid electricity would cost less than $1.

The biggest problem with an EV is adjusting to the different way of operating it. Instead of remembering to top up at a gas station before going home, you top up at home and make sure you have enough to get back. My car is a lot more predictable than some of my other appliances. My cell phone has a nasty habit of getting stuck at full power and draining the battery in a few minutes (last time it did it was at 3am, for no apparent reason). My shaver gives no indication of charge remaining until it's flat, so I have to remember to recharge it every few days. Most people are aware that appliance battery life 'milage will vary' depending on usage, but then don't apply that knowledge to EVs.

Living off grid loads you up with a lot of considerations others might not have. My neighbor absolutely loved his Lightning 8 months of the year because his excess solar kept it charged for nothing. But when solar hours decreased in the winter, his cost in time and money skyrocketed. And his biggest complaint wasn't the money but the time and inconvenience involved. Because he would have to drive 30 miles each way to use a level 3 charger. That's two hours out of his day maybe once or twice a week. This is why I'm hesitant to make this leap.