Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

It's very basic. Before a court can proceed with a criminal trial for murder, then of course, it has to determine how that murder took place. Second point: Guede had no convictions at all as of the time of the murder. So yours and Nina Burleigh's propaganda ('the real killer was a Black migrant cat burglar' ~ her words) is a pure classic attempt at trying to influence people's basest prejudices (as if a five-year-old could be a automatic criminal). Compare and contrast both Knox and Sollecito each having been cautioned by police in the past. Third point: there would be no point Guede risking life and limb to scale a thirteen-foot sheer wall, with jagged shards of glass to push through, without burgling something. Why take a couple of cheap phones when you can easily cart off a load of laptops in one of Filomena's bags?

Which is why it's a good (and entirely correct) job that the Marasca SC panel saw through all that bullcrap and determined that in fact there was not one single piece of credible, reliable evidence that Knox and/or Sollecito participated in the attack or murder, and that the lower convicting courts were grossly unlawful in the incompetent way they'd assessed "evidence".
 
Knox had committed B&E's against her fellows at Washington, except when she does it, it's a 'prank', sole aim to cause distress and anxiety. As for a real burglar, you don't think they keep what they steal? It's immediately passed on to a fence. This is likely how Guede got that lawyer's laptop; bought it cheap in a pub. Even if RG was a burglar and he took the phones as loot, then as a burglar, he'd know how to get rid of the SIM-cards before you do anything else. Professional burglars don't spend time ripping up bits of paper and scattering them around. Their aim is to be in and out as fast as possible. They don't even use the loo, they defaecate and urinate where they stand, they have no time for niceties. A professional criminal understands the need for speed. They don't hang around the joint for hours, fetching towels to stem a neck wound, cover the body or find a key to lock the door. Burglars carry a swag bag for a reason: it's for carrying as much loot out as possible. There is no way a real burglar would shimmer thirteen feet up a sheer wall and through dangerous glass without something to put the swag in.
I see weirdness from one poster is still on the "high strength" setting. Who said Guede was a pro? He seems pretty inept to me. As for the door & "finding a key", Guede had no way of knowing the front door would not STAY shut unless locked with a key. That's why Knox found it standing open the next a.m. Guede may well have had a swag bag when he shimmered up the wall:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:. He could have stuffed it in his jacket or down his pants for all we know. Or maybe he was going for small swag. Like money. Or jewelry. In any event, this remark about using the loo is one of the more extraordinary I've seen on this thread. Which is saying plenty. I'm not aware of the trend of burglars ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ on the floor...doesn't poo have a lot of DNA, e.g.? In any event, somebody here has burglars confused with line workers at your average chicken slaughterhouse.
 
It's very basic. Before a court can proceed with a criminal trial for murder, then of course, it has to determine how that murder took place. Second point: Guede had no convictions at all as of the time of the murder. So yours and Nina Burleigh's propaganda ('the real killer was a Black migrant cat burglar' ~ her words) is a pure classic attempt at trying to influence people's basest prejudices (as if a five-year-old could be a automatic criminal). Compare and contrast both Knox and Sollecito each having been cautioned by police in the past. Third point: there would be no point Guede risking life and limb to scale a thirteen-foot sheer wall, with jagged shards of glass to push through, without burgling something. Why take a couple of cheap phones when you can easily cart off a load of laptops in one of Filomena's bags?
Whoa... I guess that just flew right over your head.

I'm arguing the court violated Italian law by accepting as credible evidence a theory proposed by the prosecution. The knife was not entered into evidence, was not subject to examination by the defense, and was not evaluated by the court. Therefore the knife did not exist and the court was wrong to base a major ruling on something it knew nothing about. If you can address that issue, then please do, but please stop with all the non-sequitur comments.

Regardless of whether there were convictions, I think we all know he broke into the school in Milan, was found to have stolen items from another recent break-in, and was identified by Christian Tramontano as the guy who was burglarizing his apartment when he and his girlfriend interrupted him. So it's not propaganda, even if you want to be ignorant to what he had been doing.

Your third point is the silliest of them all. He had every intent to burglarize the cottage. What he didn't intend to do is run into Meredith and wind up killing her. THIS changed his objectives. He also took money and credit cards, or did you forget? And sure, he could have taken the laptops, and as soon as he was caught with one of them he'd go directly to jail. Guede was smart enough to realize this... maybe you're just not as clever as you thought?
 
Knox had committed B&E's against her fellows at Washington, except when she does it, it's a 'prank', sole aim to cause distress and anxiety. As for a real burglar, you don't think they keep what they steal? It's immediately passed on to a fence. This is likely how Guede got that lawyer's laptop; bought it cheap in a pub. Even if RG was a burglar and he took the phones as loot, then as a burglar, he'd know how to get rid of the SIM-cards before you do anything else. Professional burglars don't spend time ripping up bits of paper and scattering them around. Their aim is to be in and out as fast as possible. They don't even use the loo, they defaecate and urinate where they stand, they have no time for niceties. A professional criminal understands the need for speed. They don't hang around the joint for hours, fetching towels to stem a neck wound, cover the body or find a key to lock the door. Burglars carry a swag bag for a reason: it's for carrying as much loot out as possible. There is no way a real burglar would shimmer thirteen feet up a sheer wall and through dangerous glass without something to put the swag in.
Bullcrap. Amanda AND fellow roommates played a PRANK, and only ONE prank, so not pluralized. She did not break in, she didn't steal anything. It WAS a prank. Just ask the other friends who were involved. Good lord, Vixen, are you really this desperate?

Yeah, OK. Guede didn't have any money, and I'm pretty sure finding rent and food money is more important than buying a laptop. I honestly don't believe YOU believe Guede bought it, but I suppose from your position it's easier to pretend he bought it than admit he stole it.

It's really very simple Vixen - Guede thought he'd have the cottage to himself. He was taking his time when Meredith arrived home unexpectedly. This led to a confrontation, resulting in her death. What his motive was for being in the cottage before this is irrelevant, though it's rather obvious it was to burglarize it. But once he killed Meredith his ONLY motivation was to not get caught. Surely even you can follow along with that line of reasoning.
 
Whoa... I guess that just flew right over your head.

I'm arguing the court violated Italian law by accepting as credible evidence a theory proposed by the prosecution. The knife was not entered into evidence, was not subject to examination by the defense, and was not evaluated by the court. Therefore the knife did not exist and the court was wrong to base a major ruling on something it knew nothing about. If you can address that issue, then please do, but please stop with all the non-sequitur comments.

Regardless of whether there were convictions, I think we all know he broke into the school in Milan, was found to have stolen items from another recent break-in, and was identified by Christian Tramontano as the guy who was burglarizing his apartment when he and his girlfriend interrupted him. So it's not propaganda, even if you want to be ignorant to what he had been doing.

Your third point is the silliest of them all. He had every intent to burglarize the cottage. What he didn't intend to do is run into Meredith and wind up killing her. THIS changed his objectives. He also took money and credit cards, or did you forget? And sure, he could have taken the laptops, and as soon as he was caught with one of them he'd go directly to jail. Guede was smart enough to realize this... maybe you're just not as clever as you thought?
Taramontano is a sideshow diversion. All he said was that some black guy broke into his apartment. He didn't bother to report it at the time, claims the queue at the questura was too long. It doesn't follow, even if true, the guy was Guede. Police can't just prosecute on someone's whim. They need probable cause. Even if it was Guede, it doesn't prove anything else, unless it's some kind of subliminal persuasion technique. It is hardly relevant to the Kercher crime, in any case. There is a massive difference between the crime of burglary and rape and sadistic murder. The proprietor of the nursery in Milan testified in court it was not breaking and entry as there was a faulty lock and a member of staff there had told Guede he could crash there for the night after a party, which is what he did. Simply saying over and over again Guede was a prolific burglar doesn't actually prove anything. The courts determined he was let in through the front door and that the burglary was staged. You need to have a real burglary and a stranger rape/murder but that is not what was proven in court.
 
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Wait, what? Surely they can go before or after rather than piss and ◊◊◊◊ their pants at the crime site?
AIUI burglars during a crime are in a heightened sense of fear of being caught. It is well-known burglars defaecate on people's carpets, either out of anti-social attitudes or their need to not waste time by seeking a toilet. The involuntary hormone-induced fight-or-flight syndrome can cause a person to want to 'pap their pants' in a high-anxiety situation.
 
AIUI burglars during a crime are in a heightened sense of fear of being caught. It is well-known burglars defaecate on people's carpets, either out of anti-social attitudes or their need to not waste time by seeking a toilet. The involuntary hormone-induced fight-or-flight syndrome can cause a person to want to 'pap their pants' in a high-anxiety situation.
That's the problem, you don't understand it, correctly anyway. "Well-known"? Got a link?
 
Taramontano is a sideshow diversion. All he said was that some black guy broke into his apartment. He didn't bother to report it at the time, claims the queue at the questura was too long. It doesn't follow, even if true, the guy was Guede. Police can't just prosecute on someone's whim. They need probable cause. Even if it was Guede, it doesn't prove anything else, unless it's some kind of subliminal persuasion technique. It is hardly relevant to the Kercher crime, in any case. There is a massive difference between the crime of burglary and rape and sadistic murder. The proprietor of the nursery in Milan testified in court it was not breaking and entry as there was a faulty lock and a member of staff there had told Guede he could crash there for the night after a party, which is what he did. Simply saying over and over again Guede was a prolific burglar doesn't actually prove anything. The courts determined he was let in through the front door and that the burglary was staged. You need to have a real burglary and a stranger rape/murder but that is not what was proven in court.
Tramontano AND HIS GIRLFRIEND witnessed Guede, and he immediately recognized him when he entered the bar Tramontano was working. He's not a sideshow, he's a credible witness whose sole error in all of this was losing patience as he waited hours trying to report the crime.

It's very relevant as it shows he was actively burglarizing places in the days leading up to the murder, which makes his break-in at the cottage unsurprising.

I agree, there is a big difference between burglary and rape/murder. We know he was burglarizing places, we know he was in the cottage the night of the murder, and we know he is the only one proven through forensics to be in Meredith's bedroom at the time she was murdered. That a burglar got surprised by a resident and it resulted in the resident being assaulted is a common crime. That it led to murder is not as common, but it does happen, as it did in this case.

She did testify that the latch was broken, but that doesn't make his breaking into the school illegally not a B&E. Further, del Prato did NOT testify that a member of the staff there had told Guede he could crash there for the night. Why lie about such things. Here's her testimony on the subject;

DEFENSE – Mr. Dalla Vedova – Going back to Guede's answer about the fifty euros he allegedly gave to a person to let him sleep there?
WITNESS – He said he had given it to a person who, however, had actually suggested he come here because it was very difficult to find a place to sleep in Milan and he certainly wouldn't find a place anywhere, so he suggested he come to the nursery for fifty euros.
DEFENSE – Mr. Dalla Vedova – And you believed this version?
WITNESS – No, also because I asked him who this person was and he said he didn't even know what nationality he was, it seemed to me a bit like a version, an excuse...
DEFENSE – Mr. Dalla Vedova – Not very realistic?
WITNESS – ...not very realistic, yes!
DEFENSE – Attorney Dalla Vedova - So Guede's version seemed far from reality.
WITNESS – Yes, yes.
It's not me saying it over and over again, it's del Prato, it's Tramontano, it's him having property stolen from the law office that tell us he was actively committing B&E's.

The court had NO EVIDENCE he was let in through the front door, and none of the courts believed his story of a prior arrangement to meet up with Meredith. What the evidence shows is a known burglar broke into the cottage via Filomena's window, was surprised by Meredith coming home early, resulting in a confrontation that led to a sexual assault and murder.
 
This was all argued in court.
I don't believe it was "all argued in court." I believe the court short-circuited any additional argument by simply accepting the erroneous contention of the prosecution's "expert" that the width of the big toe matches Raffaele's rather than Guede's because of the aforementioned measurement error.

However, this is, again, beside the point. You claim to be able to "see the truth," while everyone else is deluding themselves. The truth is right in the PowerPoint slide, namely, that the footprint on the bathmat clearly isn't compatible with Raffaele's foot. If the court ruled that it is, then that ruling was clearly erroneous. Now, I renew the question: If, as you contend, you can "see the truth" that the print on the bathmat was made by Raffaele's foot, then why is the yellow line that passes approximately through the tip of the big toe of the bathmat print more than one centimeter behind the tip of the big toe of Raffaele's reference print?
 
I see weirdness from one poster is still on the "high strength" setting. Who said Guede was a pro? He seems pretty inept to me. As for the door & "finding a key", Guede had no way of knowing the front door would not STAY shut unless locked with a key. That's why Knox found it standing open the next a.m. Guede may well have had a swag bag when he shimmered up the wall:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:. He could have stuffed it in his jacket or down his pants for all we know. Or maybe he was going for small swag. Like money. Or jewelry. In any event, this remark about using the loo is one of the more extraordinary I've seen on this thread. Which is saying plenty. I'm not aware of the trend of burglars ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ on the floor...doesn't poo have a lot of DNA, e.g.? In any event, somebody here has burglars confused with line workers at your average chicken slaughterhouse.
Actually, I was referring to the key to Mez' door. That was a major red flag to me. Re the front door, Napoleoni on arrival at the murder scene, briefly chatted with the house occupants who were there. She said Knox told her when she found the front door swinging open, she assumed someone had gone out to the bins. Napoleoni remarked that the situation of the bins meant Knox would have had to pass anyone at or going towards the bin.
 
That's the problem, you don't understand it, correctly anyway. "Well-known"? Got a link?
Here you are:

Walsh conducted research, in which burglars assisted, for his survey. It stressed there were reasons for burglary other than gain but did not offer much consolation to honest citizens opening the doors to find their homes desecrated _ sometimes unspeakably fouled.

Burglary is not simply about stealing goods and money, Walsh said. SCIENCE TODAY
 
She just pulled it from AI google, but skipped the part that it is not common.
Wrong. I did Criminology as part of my second year Psychology degree options. Being Psychology, it was much more focused on behavioural aspects of crime, rather than law, being a science; physiological and biological bases were the core elements of the module.
 
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Tramontano AND HIS GIRLFRIEND witnessed Guede, and he immediately recognized him when he entered the bar Tramontano was working. He's not a sideshow, he's a credible witness whose sole error in all of this was losing patience as he waited hours trying to report the crime.

It's very relevant as it shows he was actively burglarizing places in the days leading up to the murder, which makes his break-in at the cottage unsurprising.

I agree, there is a big difference between burglary and rape/murder. We know he was burglarizing places, we know he was in the cottage the night of the murder, and we know he is the only one proven through forensics to be in Meredith's bedroom at the time she was murdered. That a burglar got surprised by a resident and it resulted in the resident being assaulted is a common crime. That it led to murder is not as common, but it does happen, as it did in this case.

She did testify that the latch was broken, but that doesn't make his breaking into the school illegally not a B&E. Further, del Prato did NOT testify that a member of the staff there had told Guede he could crash there for the night. Why lie about such things. Here's her testimony on the subject;


It's not me saying it over and over again, it's del Prato, it's Tramontano, it's him having property stolen from the law office that tell us he was actively committing B&E's.

The court had NO EVIDENCE he was let in through the front door, and none of the courts believed his story of a prior arrangement to meet up with Meredith. What the evidence shows is a known burglar broke into the cottage via Filomena's window, was surprised by Meredith coming home early, resulting in a confrontation that led to a sexual assault and murder.
Dalla Vedova would say that wouldn't he? That's what he was being paid to do. Look, I'll tell you what. I'll play 'devils' advocate' and adopt the position Knox and Sollecito are innocent and Guede is the sole perp. So Guede, being a migrant from Africa at age five, was obviously a drifter and n'er-do-well. So on a bank holiday weekend he decides he's going to burgle the cottage of his acquaintances. Instead of entering the easy way, via the boy's roof terrace downstairs, and who are all away, he decides to clamber thirteen feet up a wall after chucking a 10lb sandstone/limestone rock through Filomena's window, via the car park area. Mez arrives home unexpectedly, or maybe she was already at home, with the light from her room at the back of the house, not visible from the side or front. Guede, being a predatory male, makes advances which Mez rejects. So he overwhelms her by force, inflicting 47 wounds plus four neck wounds whilst she was still alive, whilst holding her arms behind her back. Once deceased, after about fifteen minutes of suffering, he rips off her clothes and moves her body by her hair. He takes her rent money, two phones and credit cards, leaving all the laptops, camera and jewellery behind. He fetches AK's lamp from her room and for some reason places it on the floor by Mez' bed. In a moment of great pity, he fetches towels to staunch the blood and covers the body with a duvet. He finds a key to her door and locks it after himself after finally leaving, having left his footprint on the bathmat.. By coincidence, Knox and Sollecito have both switched off their phones but Sollecito denies it, claiming the walls of his apartment stopped pings from the mast. So they come under suspicion.
 
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Oh, we have yet another armchair pathologist in the house. Last week we had a bunch of DNA forensic experts.
Coming from our resident armchair psychic who repeatedly claims to know what AK, RS, and other "know/knew, think/thought, believe/believed".

Last week we had a bunch of posters quoting and citing actual DNA forensic experts.
 
Dalla Vedova would say that wouldn't he? That's what he was being paid to do. Look, I'll tell you what. I'll play 'devils' advocate' and adopt the position Knox and Sollecito are innocent and Guede is the sole perp. So Guede, being a migrant from Africa at age five, was obviously a drifter and n'er-do-well. So on a bank holiday weekend he decides he's going to burgle the cottage of his acquaintances. Instead of entering the easy way, via the boy's roof terrace downstairs, and who are all away, he decides to clamber thirteen feet up a wall after chucking a 10lb sandstone/limestone rock through Filomena's window, via the car park area. Mez arrives home unexpectedly, or maybe she was already at home, with the light from her room at the back of the house, not visible from the side or front. Guede, being a predatory male, makes advances which Mez rejects. So he overwhelms her by force, inflicting 47 wounds plus four neck wounds whilst she was still alive, whilst holding her arms behind her back. Once deceased, after about fifteen minutes of suffering, he rips off her clothes and moves her body by her hair. He takes her rent money, two phones and credit cards, leaving all the laptops, camera and jewellery behind. He fetches AK's lamp from her room and for some reason places it on the floor by Mez' bed. In a moment of great pity, he fetches towels to staunch the blood and covers the body with a duvet. He finds a key to her door and locks it after himself after finally leaving, having left his footprint on the bathmat.. By coincidence, Knox and Sollecito have both switched off their phones but Sollecito denies it, claiming the walls of his apartment stopped pings from the mast. So they come under suspicion.
I've always been amused by your creative writing style...

"Instead of entering the easy way, via the boy's roof terrace downstairs, and who are all away, he decides to clamber thirteen feet up a wall after chucking a 10lb sandstone/limestone rock through Filomena's window, via the car park area."
Well, let's see. How does one get up on the terrace in the first place? Hmmm... it appears you'd have to climb the security grate on the window below it to get up there, which sounds very much the same effort as climbing the security grate under Filomena's window to get up there. So far, it's no easier. Next, there's breaking the window, or are you suggesting the glass french doors should have been what he broke to get into? For Filomena's window, all he had to do was toss the rock from the parking area parapet. If he broke in from the terrace, he'd have had to carry the rock up with him as there was no easy way to throw the rock from the ground. And, of course, this creates another problem. If someone is home it's easy to just run from the parapet, but if he's up on the terrace, getting away is much harder. In fact, the only thing that would be easier from the terrace would be climbing in through the window, but only slightly, and it certainly does not offset the harder aspects of getting onto the terrace and getting away if someone is home.

There was nothing about how Meredith was murdered that made it more difficult for a lone assailant that any of the hundreds of thousands of other females murdered by a lone male assailant.

"Once deceased, after about fifteen minutes of suffering, he rips off her clothes and moves her body by her hair."
I see no evidence that suggests her clothes didn't come off until she was deceased. In fact, I believe the aspirated blood droplets on her bare breasts is proof she was in fact still alive when she was undressed. Further, there is no evidence she was moved after death, nor is there any evidence it was by pulling her hair.

"He takes her rent money, two phones and credit cards, leaving all the laptops, camera and jewellery behind."
He finally did something smart, as taking those other items would link him to the murder. He apparently realized the same was true with the cell phones, which is why he tossed those, but cash is easily spent without tracing.

"In a moment of great pity, he fetches towels to staunch the blood and covers the body with a duvet."
I don't think it was pity, nor do I think he was trying to staunch the blood. But whatever the motive, he did fetch the towel and cover her body with the duvet.

OK, so what's the problem here?... I think, despite your somewhat creative writing style, and the questionable comments I've noted above, you summed things up pretty well.
 
The poster claims Mez didn't defend herself because some guy with a knife at her throat.
This is exactly what I mean when I say you misrepresent and twist what people say. Nowhere in my statement did I refer to Meredith...nor did LondonJohn to whom I was responding. We both were referring to "a woman" in general terms.

Yet the real pathologists (and no, they are not 'Mignini's slaves') said the nature of the injuries indicated (a) a prolonged assault, (b) deliberate targetted cruelty (torture), and (c) multiple assailants.
And what does that have to do with what either LondonJohn or I wrote?

But let's all take the word of an armchair expert keyboard warrior
That is an irony cake with hypocrisy frosting!

instead, who never even examined the body nor witnessed the crime scene.
We don't have to do either of the above to know that a woman (never mentioning Meredith) might comply with her assailant's demand if they had a knife to their throat.
Myth: If a person doesn’t fight back, they weren’t really raped.
Fact: Whatever a person does to survive is the appropriate action. Rape can be life threatening, especially when a rapist uses a weapon or force. Submission is not the same as cooperation. There are many reasons why a victim might not physically fight their attacker including shock, fear, threats or the size and strength of the attacker.
Many states do not require the victim to resist in order to charge the offender with rape or sexual assault. Those who do not resist may feel if they do so, they will anger their attacker, resulting in more severe injury.


The poster just be like gals don't fight back faced with a burglar and a knife, which explains the lack of defence wounds.
Again, you are deliberately and completely misrepresenting what I said. And Meredith did indeed have wounds on her hands which might have been defense wounds. As Manuela Comodi said in the Neflix docu:
"One person couldn't – all at the same time – hold Meredith still and hold back her hands, because there are very few defensive wounds...
Note she did NOT say there were NO defensive wounds.
If someone is swiping at you with a knife it is virtually a reflex action to grab it, which is why the hands of knife victims appear shredded,
You're assuming Guede was SWIPING at Kercher. There is no evidence of this. In fact, most of the wounds are small nicks or tip stab wounds which a swiping motion would not inflict. The fatal wound certainly wasn't from a swiping motion as it resulted from a sawing motion.

As Guede knew Mez from a rugby game in a pub and from socialising with the students downstairs, he didn't need to scale a window.
Not if he arrived AFTER Meredith came home. But he didn't. According to his deposition, he arrived around 8:30 not at 9:00 when we know she arrived.

The court said he was let in through the front door.
They made that assumption based on their belief the burglary was staged and that Knox let him in. There is no actual evidence of either which is why Hellmann disagreed entirely.
Knox in her police interview said she met 'Patrick' in the basketball court and was there when the crime happened.
LOL. Really? That's your evidence? The interrogation statement she retracted?
 

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