• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

BTW, this was a problem with the Nencini Court of Appeal judgment, but it was not final.
Here's the conclusion from Lorefice v. Italy on the unfairness of a Court of Appeal convicting over an acquittal or other lesser conviction (Google translation):

45. The Court has examined the Government's argument that, in the present case, a rehearing of X and Y was not necessary on the grounds that the Court of Appeal, far from merely reassessing their credibility, had carried out a thorough review of the reasoning of the Sciacca Court's judgment, highlighting its shortcomings in the light of all the evidence in the case file (see paragraph 35 above). However, the Court fails to see how this circumstance could relieve the Court of Appeal of its obligation to hear in person the witnesses whose statements, which it was about to interpret in a manner unfavourable to the accused and radically different from that in which the trial judge had understood the case, constituted the main evidence against the accused.

46. In light of the foregoing, the Court considers that the failure of the Palermo Court of Appeal to rehear X, Y, and/or other witnesses before overturning the applicant's acquittal at first instance undermined the fairness of the trial.

47. It follows that there has been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.

So the Nencini conviction, if it had not been quashed by Maresca, would have run into an unfairness violation of Convention Article 6, plus, of course, several other violations, before the ECHR.
 
Here's a comparison of the number of ECHR Communicated cases in the past 12 months from Italy compared to some of the other CoE states with relatively large populations. The high number of cases for some states may suggest dysfunction of the judicial system and in some cases other issues such as past or present insurgencies, attacks by a neighboring state, and poor administrative capabilities.

Turkiye: 166 Cases Communicated in the past 12 months [the highest number]
Italy: 94 Cases [the second highest number]
Ukraine: 90 Cases [the third highest number]
France: 49 Cases
Spain: 8 Cases
Germany: 7 Cases
UK: 1 Case
Twenty states have 9 or fewer Communicated Cases originating in the last 12 months.

Source: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22documentcollectionid2%22:[%22COMMUNICATEDCASES%22],%22kpdate%22:[%222024-08-21T00:00:00.0Z%22,%222025-08-21T00:00:00.0Z%22]}
 
Then again, a surprise assault before Meredith had a chance to defend herself might also have something to do with it.

Reading Vixen's commentary, you'd think Meredith was the first female to be killed by a lone male without leaving significant defensive wounds.
Oh, we have yet another armchair pathologist in the house. Last week we had a bunch of DNA forensic experts.
 
Like LJ, I'm not going to address all of these previously, and thoroughly debunked claims. However, I would like to address one of them.


I'm curious, on what basis would you say the court was able to conclude Guede did not deliver the fatal wound? Remember, this was Guede's trial, so Amanda and Raffaele had not yet been to trial. Clearly there was no evidence that would prove he didn't, so the only basis I can think of would be that the court was aware the prosecution planned to try Amanda and Raffaele, and that they planned to introduce Raffaele's kitchen knife as the murder weapon. The problem is, the knife was not entered into evidence in Guede's trial, which should mean it can't be use as a basis for ruling Guede did not inflict the wound.

So on what basis did the court conclude Guede did not inflict the fatal wound???

Regarding your last point... there are several differences between Guede's DNA and Raffaele's.

1. Guede was never in the upstairs half of the cottage, so it's not possibly his DNA got there accidentally.
2. Guede's DNA was of sufficient quantity to perform normal PCR analysis. LCN traces are inherently more likely contamination, not so much when significant quantity of DNA exists.
3. Numerous massive mistakes were made with the collection of the bra clasp. I am not aware of any mistakes made with the collection of the sweatshirt.
Because of the knife, identified as Sollecito's, fit the neck wound, fit the outline on the mattress, near-full DNA profile of Mez on blade, Knox on knife hilt at a point in which a thrusting stabbing movement could be determined (as opposed to slicing food). At the cottage when the housemates were taken to the scene, Knox had a breakdown at the knives, blurted out some kind of confession - which we are not privy to, as it is off the record - but it was enough to make Napoleoni escort her to the police car with her head covered by a blanket. The LCN on the hilt is the one C&V - on the orders of their US masters - refused to analyse, claiming it was 'too LCN' but which Nencini got Berti and Barni* [_sp? ] of the Rome RIS to analyse. The claim there is no equipment to cope with LCN is laughable as LCN analysis is used in embryology, for example, all the time.

*{sounds like a circus act}
 
Last edited:
So says the person with the superiority complex who reads the minds of people involved. Considering her comment had nothing to do with pathology is just icing on the cake.
The poster claims Mez didn't defend herself because some guy with a knife at her throat. Yet the real pathologists (and no, they are not 'Mignini's slaves') said the nature of the injuries indicated (a) a prolonged assault, (b) deliberate targetted cruelty (torture), and (c) multiple assailants. But let's all take the word of an armchair expert keyboard warrior instead, who never even examined the body nor witnessed the crime scene. The poster just be like gals don't fight back faced with a burglar and a knife, which explains the lack of defence wounds. If someone is swiping at you with a knife it is virtually a reflex action to grab it, which is why the hands of knife victims appear shredded, As Guede knew Mez from a rugby game in a pub and from socialising with the students downstairs, he didn't need to scale a window. The court said he was let in through the front door. Knox in her police interview said she met 'Patrick' in the basketball court and was there when the crime happened.
 
Because of the knife, identified as Sollecito's, fit the neck wound, fit the outline on the mattress, near-full DNA profile of Mez on blade, Knox on knife hilt at a point in which a thrusting stabbing movement could be determined (as opposed to slicing food). At the cottage when the housemates were taken to the scene, Knox had a breakdown at the knives, blurted out some kind of confession - which we are not privy to, as it is off the record - but it was enough to make Napoleoni escort her to the police car with her head covered by a blanket. The LCN on the hilt is the one C&V - on the orders of their US masters - refused to analyse, claiming it was 'too LCN' but which Nencini got Berti and Barni* [_sp? ] of the Rome RIS to analyse. The claim there is no equipment to cope with LCN is laughable as LCN analysis is used in embryology, for example, all the time.

*{sounds like a circus act}
What knife? The court knew NOTHING of the knife as it was not introduced into evidence. It was nothing more than rumor, speculation. There was no evidence it fit the neck wound (it didn't), no evidence it fit the imprint on the bed sheet (it didn't), no evidence Meredith's DNA was on the blade (it wasn't). So the court made a MAJOR ruling - Guede did not inflict the fatal wound - based on a theory that the court didn't hear. I believe the court violated the law.

BTW, I'm curious.. why do you constantly post so much nonsense. I mean, really.. no, sorry, location of Amanda's DNA did not, does not prove HOW the knife was used. How Amanda reacted when she had to look through a draw of knives has no bearing and was not discussed by the court. What Napoleoni thought of that reaction is irrelevant. That C&V didn't profile sample 36I is entirely irrelevant. They didn't claim there is no equipment to cope with LCN, they believed there wasn't sufficient DNA for a reliable profile, but the point is irrelevant. I think you impress yourself by filling your responses with a lot of fluff, a lot of nonsense. It doesn't make your arguments any more convincing.
 
What knife? The court knew NOTHING of the knife as it was not introduced into evidence. It was nothing more than rumor, speculation. There was no evidence it fit the neck wound (it didn't), no evidence it fit the imprint on the bed sheet (it didn't), no evidence Meredith's DNA was on the blade (it wasn't). So the court made a MAJOR ruling - Guede did not inflict the fatal wound - based on a theory that the court didn't hear. I believe the court violated the law.

BTW, I'm curious.. why do you constantly post so much nonsense. I mean, really.. no, sorry, location of Amanda's DNA did not, does not prove HOW the knife was used. How Amanda reacted when she had to look through a draw of knives has no bearing and was not discussed by the court. What Napoleoni thought of that reaction is irrelevant. That C&V didn't profile sample 36I is entirely irrelevant. They didn't claim there is no equipment to cope with LCN, they believed there wasn't sufficient DNA for a reliable profile, but the point is irrelevant. I think you impress yourself by filling your responses with a lot of fluff, a lot of nonsense. It doesn't make your arguments any more convincing.
The other factors - and the courts' conclusions are based on ALL the evidence - include the finding of fact the 'burglary' was faked and that someone came back to move the body later and rearrange the scene. Only Mez' possessions were stolen. Given there were three laptops - then quite expensive - and Filomena's camera and jewellery, not to mention the students' hi-fi systems downstairs and further laptops downstairs, it is clear burglary was not the motive.
 
The poster claims Mez didn't defend herself because some guy with a knife at her throat. Yet the real pathologists (and no, they are not 'Mignini's slaves') said the nature of the injuries indicated (a) a prolonged assault, (b) deliberate targetted cruelty (torture), and (c) multiple assailants. But let's all take the word of an armchair expert keyboard warrior instead, who never even examined the body nor witnessed the crime scene. The poster just be like gals don't fight back faced with a burglar and a knife, which explains the lack of defence wounds. If someone is swiping at you with a knife it is virtually a reflex action to grab it, which is why the hands of knife victims appear shredded, As Guede knew Mez from a rugby game in a pub and from socialising with the students downstairs, he didn't need to scale a window. The court said he was let in through the front door. Knox in her police interview said she met 'Patrick' in the basketball court and was there when the crime happened.
First, why not be honest about what Stacy said. Specifically, she wrote "Holding a knife to a woman's throat might make her comply with his demands?". So no, she did not say that's what happened, she was stating one of many reasons why a victim might not have as many defensive wounds as one might expect.

As to what the seven forensic pathologists who testified had to say, let's have a look at how Massei summarized it;

Dr. Lalli (Massei pg 116) wrote:
He excluded, finally, that the biological data alone could indicate the presence and action of several people against the victim.

Dr. Liviero, consultant appointed by the Public Minister (Massei pg 119) wrote:
As for the dynamic of the homicide, with particular reference to whether the action was performed by one or more persons, Dr. Liviero ruled out the existence of scientific elements that would allow us to formulate a response to this question.

Professor Bacci, consultant appointed by the Public Prosecutor (Massei pg 122) wrote:
He indicated that the biological data did not allow for a determination of whether the injuries were caused by one person or by several people, claiming they were compatible with both possibilities

Professor Norelli, consultant for the civil party, (Massei pg 127) wrote:
All this led to the conclusion that one single person could not have carried out all the harmful actions which had occurred in this case.

Professor Introna, consultant for Raffaele Sollecito (Massei pg 137) wrote:
He also stated that the action was that of a single attacker.

Professor Torre, consultant for Amanda Knox (Massei pg 145) wrote:
He maintained that " in any case there is nothing there which could lead me to think that there was more than one attacker"

Prof Cingolani, expert appointed by the judge (GIP) (Massei pg 153) wrote:
He was unable to provide an explanation for such a disproportion, which he held to be compatible with the presence of more than one person, but also with the action of a sole person who acts in a progressive manner
Only one of the seven, Professor Norelli, concluded the injuries indicated more than one assailant. And while a lone assailant can commit "(a) a prolonged assault, (b) deliberate targetted cruelty (torture)", the pathologists almost unanimously agreed the injuries did not prove more than one assailant - you just made "(c) multiple assailants" up.

The rest of your rambling is neither helpful or accurate. It's a well known fact that some victims, accepting they are at a deadly disadvantage, will relent to their attacker's demands in an effort to not die. If Meredith was surprised by Guede, and found a knife to her throat, it is real and credible theory that she didn't fight back for fear of having her throat slashed. Stacy never claimed this is what happened, only that it is a possibility. That you, an armchair expert keyboard warrior, refuse to accept this very real possibility is irrelevant.

And once again, two thirds of your response is not only nonsensical, but not even related to the point being discussed. Why do you do that?
 
The poster claims Mez didn't defend herself because some guy with a knife at her throat. Yet the real pathologists (and no, they are not 'Mignini's slaves') said the nature of the injuries indicated (a) a prolonged assault, (b) deliberate targetted cruelty (torture), and (c) multiple assailants. But let's all take the word of an armchair expert keyboard warrior instead, who never even examined the body nor witnessed the crime scene. The poster just be like gals don't fight back faced with a burglar and a knife, which explains the lack of defence wounds. If someone is swiping at you with a knife it is virtually a reflex action to grab it, which is why the hands of knife victims appear shredded, As Guede knew Mez from a rugby game in a pub and from socialising with the students downstairs, he didn't need to scale a window. The court said he was let in through the front door. Knox in her police interview said she met 'Patrick' in the basketball court and was there when the crime happened.
The poster did no such thing, so another one of your misrepresentations. All of us can go back and read what was written.
 
The other factors - and the courts' conclusions are based on ALL the evidence - include the finding of fact the 'burglary' was faked and that someone came back to move the body later and rearrange the scene. Only Mez' possessions were stolen. Given there were three laptops - then quite expensive - and Filomena's camera and jewellery, not to mention the students' hi-fi systems downstairs and further laptops downstairs, it is clear burglary was not the motive.
Completely irrelevant. As you yourself claimed in your initial response, Guede's court made a ruling based on speculation, assumption, a completely unproven claim about a knife NOT entered into evidence during the trial.

Did anyone during Guede's trial question the investigation's theory of the break-in being staged? No. So exactly how did the court make a "finding of fact" when the break-in wasn't even debated in court, when evidence that would indicate it was real was never presented? Just like with the knife, the court merely accepted the investigation's theories, something a court should never do.

And no, sorry.. it is NOT clear burglary was not the motive. Guede had been committing B&E's prior to the night of the murder. He was in the cottage, he had no credible explanation for being there, and there was evidence of a break-in. What seems clear to me is he started out planning to burglarize the cottage, was surprised by Meredith coming home, it led to a confrontation that resulted in her death, and his objectives changed after he killed her. After all, if Guede was caught with three "quite expensive" laptops, Filomena's camera and jewellery, and students hi-fi system, all items taken from the scene of a murder, he might as well print his own ticket to prison. So no, him not taking those things is quite understandable.
 
This is what the Massei court concluded about Prof Vinci's claims:


However, the Court cannot agree with one point of departure, which is the operation that consists of detaching the small mark from the big toe print, since this results in a clearly visible resizing of the big toe.

This operation rests on the assumption that there is an interruption of continuity in the print (tables on pp. 45-46 of the report), but this starting point is not at all convincing, given that the photograph provided as documentary evidence of this appears to show exactly the contrary. The base of the material in the disputed point (in this portion of the mat, the terrycloth [also] has a decorative protuberance) shows that the trace of blood is a single unit on all of the curl (flourish), and is uniformly linked, forming a single unit with all the other parts of the material on which the big toe was placed. For these reasons, the proof that this mark is actually the mark of the second toe (missing in the morphology of Sollecito's foot) appears totally weak and unsatisfactory.

Finally, although it is possible to agree that in the calculation of the width of the big toe (of approximately 30mm.) the point of measuring may fall in an unstained place, nevertheless a comprehensive view of the bathmat clearly shows why this was done. Considering (see attached photo 17 of the ERT showing a complete view of the bathmat print) that the small region under discussion is part of the tip of the big toe, the point on the right of the toe giving the 30mm measurement lies along the line descending perpendicularly from that tip, without any widening.

In brief, the suggestion that the extension of the big toe trace be sacrificed, interpreting it instead as the print of the second toe, appears far from realistic. Furthermore, the association of the bathmat footprint with Guede's foot (see the CDROM provided by Professor Vinci showing the "superimposition sequence" for Guede's foot and for Knox's) appears, frankly, as strained, given that Guede's footprint, apart from having a morphology [380] which is generally longer and more tapered, also has a second toe print which unequivocally falls quite far from the big toe print, so that the small mark whose detachment from the big toe is in question here could hardly be attributed to the second toe of the co-accused.

Finally, there is a piece of data which the Court has uncontrovertibly adopted: the same images of the bathmat, shown in deepened colours by the lighting equipment of the Crimescope, do actually increase the impression of solidity of the size of the big toe (and also of the metatarsus), and augment the perception of the unity with the rest of the small mark whose detachment was suggested.



The consequence is that the Court does not hold as practicable the alternative version aimed at confuting or undermining the judgement of probable identity formulated by the Scientific Police, which instead finds itself strengthened.

Perugia, 4-5 December 2009 Drafters [Estensori]<sup>[1]</sup>:

Dr Beatrice Cristiani, judge

Dr Giancarlo Massei, president.



[1] Estensore = a person who draws up a legal document
This is completely wrong, but that's beside the point. I said that even if you don't accept that the first and second toes are merged, it's still obvious that the bathmat print looks nothing like Raffaele's reference print.

1755785818072.png

So please explain to us, Vixen, who claims to be the only one here who's able to see "the truth of the matter," why the yellow line is almost touching the tip of the big toe of the bathmat print, but is more than a centimeter behind the tip of the big toe of Raffaele's reference print.
 
Last edited:
Here's a comparison of the number of ECHR Communicated cases in the past 12 months from Italy compared to some of the other CoE states with relatively large populations. The high number of cases for some states may suggest dysfunction of the judicial system and in some cases other issues such as past or present insurgencies, attacks by a neighboring state, and poor administrative capabilities.

Turkiye: 166 Cases Communicated in the past 12 months [the highest number]
Italy: 94 Cases [the second highest number]
Ukraine: 90 Cases [the third highest number]
France: 49 Cases
Spain: 8 Cases
Germany: 7 Cases
UK: 1 Case
Twenty states have 9 or fewer Communicated Cases originating in the last 12 months.

Soreurce: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22documentcollectionid2%22:[%22COMMUNICATEDCASES%22],%22kpdate%22:[%222024-08-21T00:00:00.0Z%22,%222025-08-21T00:00:00.0Z%22]}
I've extended this analysis of the number of ECHR Communicated cases per state to the last 5 years, this being the filter point next greater to 12 months in the HUDOC database, to give a broader view of the levels of relative human rights issues among the CoE states. Here's the list of the states with the highest number of Communicated cases over that period as well as those with populations very roughly similar to Italy's:

Russia: 752 Cases Communicated in the past 5 years (the highest number)
Turkiye: 673 Cases
Ukraine: 473 Cases
Italy: 404 Cases [the fourth highest number]
Romania: 348 Cases [the fifth highest number]
France: 317 Cases
Spain: 61 Cases
UK: 50 Cases
Germany: 40 Cases

Sixteen states have 50 or fewer Communicated cases originating in the last 5 years.

Again, it appears from the data that Italy's human rights record based on Communicated cases ranks with those states with dysfunctional judicial systems and other issues, such as insurgencies or warfare between states. Note that Russia would most likely have had more cases in the last 12 months, but it was expelled from and renounced the CoE treaty in March, 2022. The cases it remains responsible for are those whose final event (court judgment, for example) occurred before the finalization of its CoE membership responsibility.
 
Last edited:
Completely irrelevant. As you yourself claimed in your initial response, Guede's court made a ruling based on speculation, assumption, a completely unproven claim about a knife NOT entered into evidence during the trial.

Did anyone during Guede's trial question the investigation's theory of the break-in being staged? No. So exactly how did the court make a "finding of fact" when the break-in wasn't even debated in court, when evidence that would indicate it was real was never presented? Just like with the knife, the court merely accepted the investigation's theories, something a court should never do.

And no, sorry.. it is NOT clear burglary was not the motive. Guede had been committing B&E's prior to the night of the murder. He was in the cottage, he had no credible explanation for being there, and there was evidence of a break-in. What seems clear to me is he started out planning to burglarize the cottage, was surprised by Meredith coming home, it led to a confrontation that resulted in her death, and his objectives changed after he killed her. After all, if Guede was caught with three "quite expensive" laptops, Filomena's camera and jewellery, and students hi-fi system, all items taken from the scene of a murder, he might as well print his own ticket to prison. So no, him not taking those things is quite understandable.
It's very basic. Before a court can proceed with a criminal trial for murder, then of course, it has to determine how that murder took place. Second point: Guede had no convictions at all as of the time of the murder. So yours and Nina Burleigh's propaganda ('the real killer was a Black migrant cat burglar' ~ her words) is a pure classic attempt at trying to influence people's basest prejudices (as if a five-year-old could be a automatic criminal). Compare and contrast both Knox and Sollecito each having been cautioned by police in the past. Third point: there would be no point Guede risking life and limb to scale a thirteen-foot sheer wall, with jagged shards of glass to push through, without burgling something. Why take a couple of cheap phones when you can easily cart off a load of laptops in one of Filomena's bags?
 
Completely irrelevant. As you yourself claimed in your initial response, Guede's court made a ruling based on speculation, assumption, a completely unproven claim about a knife NOT entered into evidence during the trial.

Did anyone during Guede's trial question the investigation's theory of the break-in being staged? No. So exactly how did the court make a "finding of fact" when the break-in wasn't even debated in court, when evidence that would indicate it was real was never presented? Just like with the knife, the court merely accepted the investigation's theories, something a court should never do.
Without either RS or AK represented at Rudy's trial, at that trial both sides had reason to simply 'stipulate' the knife and staging evidence, without testing it through things like cross-examination. Rudy's lawyers were more than happy to agree to them, since it pointed away from their client. Effectively, the Italian prosecutors pulled a fast one, having items accepted as 'judicial facts' before even AK or RS could be heard, and without the factuality of them being tested.
 
Last edited:
And no, sorry.. it is NOT clear burglary was not the motive. Guede had been committing B&E's prior to the night of the murder. He was in the cottage, he had no credible explanation for being there, and there was evidence of a break-in. What seems clear to me is he started out planning to burglarize the cottage, was surprised by Meredith coming home, it led to a confrontation that resulted in her death, and his objectives changed after he killed her. After all, if Guede was caught with three "quite expensive" laptops, Filomena's camera and jewellery, and students hi-fi system, all items taken from the scene of a murder, he might as well print his own ticket to prison. So no, him not taking those things is quite understandable.
Knox had committed B&E's against her fellows at Washington, except when she does it, it's a 'prank', sole aim to cause distress and anxiety. As for a real burglar, you don't think they keep what they steal? It's immediately passed on to a fence. This is likely how Guede got that lawyer's laptop; bought it cheap in a pub. Even if RG was a burglar and he took the phones as loot, then as a burglar, he'd know how to get rid of the SIM-cards before you do anything else. Professional burglars don't spend time ripping up bits of paper and scattering them around. Their aim is to be in and out as fast as possible. They don't even use the loo, they defaecate and urinate where they stand, they have no time for niceties. A professional criminal understands the need for speed. They don't hang around the joint for hours, fetching towels to stem a neck wound, cover the body or find a key to lock the door. Burglars carry a swag bag for a reason: it's for carrying as much loot out as possible. There is no way a real burglar would shimmer thirteen feet up a sheer wall and through dangerous glass without something to put the swag in.
 
This is completely wrong, but that's beside the point. I said that even if you don't accept that the first and second toes are merged, it's still obvious that the bathmat print looks nothing like Raffaele's reference print.

View attachment 63096

So please explain to us, Vixen, who claims to be the only one here who's able to see "the truth of the matter," why the yellow line is almost touching the tip of the big toe of the bathmat print, but is more than a centimeter behind the tip of the big toe of Raffaele's reference print.
This was all argued in court.
 
Without either RS or AK represented at Rudy's trial, at that trial both sides had reason to simply 'stipulate' the knife and staging evidence, without testing it through things like cross-examination. Rudy's lawyers were more than happy to agree to them, since it pointed away from their client. Effectively, the Italian prosecutors pulled a fast one, having items accepted as 'judicial facts' before even AK or RS could be heard, and without the factuality of them being tested.
That's what defence lawyers do.
 
Without either RS or AK represented at Rudy's trial, at that trial both sides had reason to simply 'stipulate' the knife and staging evidence, without testing it through things like cross-examination. Rudy's lawyers were more than happy to agree to them, since it pointed away from their client. Effectively, the Italian prosecutors pulled a fast one, having items accepted as 'judicial facts' before even AK or RS could be eard, and without the factuality of them being tested.
In essence, Mignini used Guede's fast-track trial as preparation for the trial of Knox and Sollecito, which itself could be considered as an effort by the Italian authorities to cover up the violations of Italian procedural and criminal law that took place during the interrogations of Knox and Sollecito.

The purpose of the charges and trials against Knox and Sollecito, for example, that by the Nencini court, can be viewed with a high level of suspicion; Nencini himself, after his Court of Appeal trial re-convicted Knox and Sollecito of the murder/rape of Kercher, and re-imposed the aggravating circumstance on Knox's conviction for calunnia, did not indicate that Knox should be extradited to Italy from the US; he stated that she was lawfully in the US, IIRC. The recent re-conviction of Knox for calunnia, and the denial of compensation for unjust detention for Sollecito, match this pattern of the courts serving to protect state agents and the state - and its treasury - from accountability.
 

Back
Top Bottom