Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

For goodness sake, Vinci was accused of photoshopping his image; i.e., manipulating it to try to make it (a) look larger, and (b) look more like Guede's.
For goodness sake, a) you've been repeatedly asked to, and declined to, provide evidence for this claim in the past, and b) crucially, accusations are not proof. Even granting, arguendo, that such an accusation was made, it proves exactly nothing without evidence. The accusation could have been made due to ignorance or misunderstanding of Vinci's methods, or maliciously, in an attempt to discredit his work.

Further, as Stacy pointed out, you've gone from falsely claiming that Vinci was "reprimanded" to simply claiming that he was "accused."

Problem is, Guede was three shoe sizes larger than RS, his footprint looks completely different from RS or AK. The latter appear to have high arches whereas RS' is nearer the ground, as it were.
And, even if you don't accept that the first and second toe prints are merged on the bath mat, the big toe on the bath mat print looks nothing like Raffaele's big toe. It looks an awful lot like Guede's if you do accept that the first and second toe prints are merged, though. I realize now that you came up with the idea that the print shows a "hammer toe" because you think there are only four toe prints, as there are in Raffaele's reference footprint. But, again, there are actually five toe prints; as Vinci illustrates, the first and second are merged. And, again, before you start, even if you don't accept that, the big toe print still looks nothing like Raffaele's.

As for 'nano' that is merely a colloquial Brit term meaning super-tiny.
No. You just pulled that out of an orifice, as usual, in a lame attempt to cover up your scientific and technical ignorance. But even if it were true, what you wrote still doesn't make any sense. What, exactly, is a "super-tiny" millimeter? How would it compare to, say, an extra-large millimeter? :rolleyes:

This is of a piece with your BS claim that in British English the word "mischaraterise" is now only used by politicians caught lying, in an equally lame attempt to deflect attention from the fact that you were being called out for repeatedly mischaracterizing so many other posters' statements and arguments.

The pair pointing out the 'burglary' and blood in the bathroom was part of their 'random burglary' narrative.
No. This is just one of your desperate attempts to twist the data to fit your theory, rather than alter your theory to fit the data. You (falsely) claim that Amanda and Raffaele cleaned up a large amount of incriminating evidence, yet they left a footprint that you (incorrectly) claim incriminates Raffaele and pointed it out to the police, just to supposedly bolster the "'random burglary' narrative." This is completely illogical.

They knew what lay behind the door as they were the ones who locked it.
Assumes facts not in evidence.

The pair even dragged Napoleoni away from her car as she was about to leave the scene to make sure she saw Guede's faeces in the loo,
What Stacy said.

Finally, some old business. I realized that I should have mentioned, because I don't think I ever have in this thread, that that reason I'm qualified to evaluate technical drawings and measurements is that I'm a mechanical designer, with an AAS in mechanical design, a BS in mechanical engineering technology, and an MS in industrial technology.
 
Me, I'm waiting for Vixen to answer a question asked way, way, way upthread, that she has ignored, as well as simply doubled down on her belief in the veracity of Stefanoni's forensic DNA work.

Question: name one, just one forensic DNA scientist who agrees with Stefanoni's work in this case.

Answer, there are two. (I forget their names).

One said that Stefanoni's work could be said to be solid, except he had to reserve his opinion because he never saw the negative controls. (IIRC he implied that the negative controls had never been released, but am open to sorrection if that is not so.)

Another at court said that Stefanoni did good work, but then conceded that she had not followed international protocols in her lab. His excuse in asserting both, was that often a technician's experience can make up for not following international protocols. He also did not say if Stefanoni possessed that kind of experience. (That's even before accepting the premise of his comment, which many do not.)

There. Answered for Vixen. Can Vixen point to any other DNA forensic expert who sides with Stefanoni's work, or even better, sides with Stefanoni without those caveats?

Why would Vixen remain silent on this issue if the case was so solid?
Garofani. Torrecelli. Both top of their field and highly respected.
 
A rather ironic statement coming from you.... the last time we were discussing "suspect centric", you tossed about a few non-sequitur comments before disappearing from the discussion. You weren't even honest enough to admit you were wrong, and that Stefanoni was quite obviously conducting her analysis from a suspect centric perspective.
Let's bring up the example of a criminal named BK, to help distance you from your feelings of familiarity towards the current case. The crime scene is full of all kinds of DNA. Come the trial, does the court want to hear about the hundred and ten different fragments? No. The prosecution is merely building a case against BK, not the freaking bellboy. That evidence of itself needs to be looked at with ALL the other evidence against BK. Sollecito doesn't get away with murder just because there's a speck on a latex glove, together with ALL the other evidence against him, except by means outwith the court.
 
For goodness sake, a) you've been repeatedly asked to, and declined to, provide evidence for this claim in the past, and b) crucially, accusations are not proof. Even granting, arguendo, that such an accusation was made, it proves exactly nothing without evidence. The accusation could have been made due to ignorance or misunderstanding of Vinci's methods, or maliciously, in an attempt to discredit his work.

Further, as Stacy pointed out, you've gone from falsely claiming that Vinci was "reprimanded" to simply claiming that he was "accused."


And, even if you don't accept that the first and second toe prints are merged on the bath mat, the big toe on the bath mat print looks nothing like Raffaele's big toe. It looks an awful lot like Guede's if you do accept that the first and second toe prints are merged, though. I realize now that you came up with the idea that the print shows a "hammer toe" because you think there are only four toe prints, as there are in Raffaele's reference footprint. But, again, there are actually five toe prints; as Vinci illustrates, the first and second are merged. And, again, before you start, even if you don't accept that, the big toe print still looks nothing like Raffaele's.


No. You just pulled that out of an orifice, as usual, in a lame attempt to cover up your scientific and technical ignorance. But even if it were true, what you wrote still doesn't make any sense. What, exactly, is a "super-tiny" millimeter? How would it compare to, say, an extra-large millimeter? :rolleyes:

This is of a piece with your BS claim that in British English the word "mischaraterise" is now only used by politicians caught lying, in an equally lame attempt to deflect attention from the fact that you were being called out for repeatedly mischaracterizing so many other posters' statements and arguments.


No. This is just one of your desperate attempts to twist the data to fit your theory, rather than alter your theory to fit the data. You (falsely) claim that Amanda and Raffaele cleaned up a large amount of incriminating evidence, yet they left a footprint that you (incorrectly) claim incriminates Raffaele and pointed it out to the police, just to supposedly bolster the "'random burglary' narrative." This is completely illogical.


Assumes facts not in evidence.


What Stacy said.

Finally, some old business. I realized that I should have mentioned, because I don't think I ever have in this thread, that that reason I'm qualified to evaluate technical drawings and measurements is that I'm a mechanical designer, with an AAS in mechanical design, a BS in mechanical engineering technology, and an MS in industrial technology.
Your arguments are all centred around obvious lies, which is why I don't have the time to bother with them. If you want to pretend the footprint is Guede's, that's your decision. You can't force me, who can see the truth of the matter, to pretend it belongs to anyone other that RS, together with ALL the other evidence against him.
 
Your arguments are all centred [sic] around obvious lies, which is why I don't have the time to bother with them. If you want to pretend the footprint is Guede's, that's your decision. You can't force me, who can see the truth of the matter, to pretend it belongs to anyone other that RS, together with ALL the other evidence against him.


You don't bother with them because they make your rambling mischaracterizations, ridiculous opinions, and outrageous mind reading attempts look like the stupid jokes that they are.
 
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Let's bring up the example of a criminal named BK, to help distance you from your feelings of familiarity towards the current case. The crime scene is full of all kinds of DNA. Come the trial, does the court want to hear about the hundred and ten different fragments? No. The prosecution is merely building a case against BK, not the freaking bellboy. That evidence of itself needs to be looked at with ALL the other evidence against BK. Sollecito doesn't get away with murder just because there's a speck on a latex glove, together with ALL the other evidence against him, except by means outwith the court.
And there you go again, spewing non-sequitur comments while failing to address the real issue.

There were 12 alleles ABOVE 50 RFU, and NOT in stutter position. These are part of a MIXED DNA sample, and therefore they are every bit as relevant as all the other alleles present in the sample. The presence of those alleles is a strong indication of contamination. It is up to the court to determine whether those extra alleles are relevant. It is NOT the job of the tech to determine whether 12 additional alleles are relevant or not. Suppression of those alleles is proof she was being suspect centric in her analysis.

Conversely, she had no issue listing all 30 peaks that matched Meredith's profile, despite 22 of them being well below the 50 RFU threshold. Now, maybe YOU think it's OK to ignore forensic DNA standards that specifically set the threshold at 50 RFU for a reason, but in a court of law, and in any competent forensic DNA lab, you can NOT list alleles below that threshold, especially when some are as low as 11 (yes, ELEVEN!). Again, a competent forensic DNA analyst would not have listed them, and noted there was insufficient DNA to determine a reliable profile. In fact, this is precisely what the Qubit Fluorometer was indicating with it's multiple "Too Low" readings, but Stefanoni would have none of it. Imagine leaving off 12 peaks well above 50 from one sample, and then including 22 peaks well below 50 in another, all because she would only include those she was after, and drop those that she was not after, and completely disregarding forensic DNA standards along the way.
 
And there you go again, spewing non-sequitur comments while failing to address the real issue.

There were 12 alleles ABOVE 50 RFU, and NOT in stutter position. These are part of a MIXED DNA sample, and therefore they are every bit as relevant as all the other alleles present in the sample. The presence of those alleles is a strong indication of contamination. It is up to the court to determine whether those extra alleles are relevant. It is NOT the job of the tech to determine whether 12 additional alleles are relevant or not. Suppression of those alleles is proof she was being suspect centric in her analysis.

Conversely, she had no issue listing all 30 peaks that matched Meredith's profile, despite 22 of them being well below the 50 RFU threshold. Now, maybe YOU think it's OK to ignore forensic DNA standards that specifically set the threshold at 50 RFU for a reason, but in a court of law, and in any competent forensic DNA lab, you can NOT list alleles below that threshold, especially when some are as low as 11 (yes, ELEVEN!). Again, a competent forensic DNA analyst would not have listed them, and noted there was insufficient DNA to determine a reliable profile. In fact, this is precisely what the Qubit Fluorometer was indicating with it's multiple "Too Low" readings, but Stefanoni would have none of it. Imagine leaving off 12 peaks well above 50 from one sample, and then including 22 peaks well below 50 in another, all because she would only include those she was after, and drop those that she was not after, and completely disregarding forensic DNA standards along the way.
The courts accepted Stefanoni's reports. Crini successfully argued at the Nencini merits court that C& V’s report had been full of references to American standards which led to specious claims by the defence that Stefanoni had not followed ‘international standards’ : it is noted.

The Italian Scientific Police follow the guidelines of the ENFSI – the European Network Forensic Science Institutes. Dr Stefanoni observed that they followed these specific guidelines whereas Conti and Vecchiotti basically picked and mixed a random selection of international opinions:


“We followed the guidelines of the ENFSI, theirs is just a collage of different international opinions”.
The Chieffi Court (Supreme Court) The next level of appeal court overturned completely Hellman’s findings. It rebutted that the DNA sample of Meredith’s was ipso facto low quality just because it was LCN. ‘The experts’ had claimed, relying on their US sources that LCN sampling should only be done on special projects, such as missing persons or cadaver identification, and that there was not the technology as it was ‘too innovative’. Chieffi did not buy this, pointing to embryology studies. He scoffed at the idea of ‘the experts’ being more expert than Professor Novelli or Dr Torricelli. He censured Hellmann for failing to consider their equivalent expert knowledge. Chieffi was particularly critical of ‘the experts’ refusing to test the remaining knife sample, calling their reasoning, ‘intellectually dishonest’. 25 March 2013, Chieffi ordered the case back to the Appeal court to consider the DNA evidence again, amongst other issues, and that the knife sample be tested. One suspects ‘the experts’ were loath to test the sample in case it turned out be further DNA of Meredith, and this may be why Chieffi smelt a rat.

The Nencini Court (Appeal Court) Nencini made it clear in a newspaper interview it was not within his remit to criticise ‘the experts’, but rather, to assess the legal rectitude of the Massei court decision, which Hellmann patently failed to do. However, criticise he does. He directs to Barni that ‘no US standards’ are to be quoted. In upholding the findings of the Massei court he makes the following point in his reasoning about the DNA of the knife and bra clasp:
“… The consultant holds furthermore that the most appropriate technical approach to interpret the genetic profile arising from trace 165B and to avoid subjective interpretations is to “call upon”, meaning to consider as valid, all of the alleles with RFU > 50, independently of their position or whether or not they might be stutter. Once the complete profile is determined, given that there may also be more than two contributors to the trace, we feel that the only statistical approach that can be used adequately here is the RMNE (Random Man Not Excluded) method. This statistical approach makes it possible to estimate the possible error due to a chance compatibility, meaning that of a person chosen randomly from the population and who by pure chance is fully compatible with the genetic characteristics of the individual represented in the trace. The higher and nearer to 1 that probability is, the more likely it is that the profile could be the result of a random choice and thus the higher the probability of an error in the attribution of the genetic profile to a given individual. In this case, as seen in Table 5, the profile of Raffaele Sollecito is compatible at all the loci analyzed in the mixture of DNA found on Exhibit 165B. The probability that a random individual from the population would also be compatible (the inclusion probability) [245] was calculated, and came out to be equal to 3.05592 x 10^-6, which is about 1 in 327 thousand. This computation is considered to be extremely conservative, since all of the allelic components are taken into consideration together with their frequency in the reference population.” (Pages 15-17 of the technical report submitted at the 6 September 2011 hearing before the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Perugia.)


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The same investigative method was also suggested by the consultant of the Prosecutor in relation to the interpretation of the genetic profile of the markers located on the Y chromosome of trace 165B. Here again, all alleles with RFU>50 were considered, giving the following table: Table 3. Profiles of Chromosome Y taken from trace 165 B Marker Exhibit 165B Raffaele SOLLECITO DVS456 13.15 13 DYS3891 12-13 12 DYS390 22-23-24 22 DYS3891 29 29 D'tS458 14-15-17 15 DVSI9 14 14 DVS385 13-14-16 13-14 DYS393 12-13-14 13 DYS39I 9-10-11 10 DYS439 11 11 DVS635 21-22 21 DVS392 11 11 V GAT,t 114 11-12 11 DYS437 14-15 15 D't'S438 9-10 10 DVS448 19-20-21 20 [246] On the basis of the data in the above table, applying the method of statistical calculation indicated above, Prof. Novelli estimated the probability of a chance inclusion of a random person from the population in the mixed profile, together with the chance compatibility of this random individual with the major contributor to the Y chromosome, as about 1 in 3 billion.
He upholds that the Forensic Police, aside from some human error, acted correctly and dismissed defence claims that Stefanoni had withheld raw data, and as claimed by ‘the experts’, citing documentary proof the information had been deposited. Nencini reinstated the convictions, 31 January 2014, and dismissed the claim of contamination. The sample on the knife ‘the experts’ had claimed was ‘starch’ and ‘too low LCN’ was successfully tested and found to be that of Amanda Knox.

The claim it was contaminated was Marasca-Bruno pulling it out of thin air, a claim which was never tried, tested, cross-examined nor proven in a merits or Appeal Court. The reason the pair were acquitted was thanks to interference from outside the court.
 
The courts accepted Stefanoni's reports. Crini successfully argued at the Nencini merits court that C& V’s report had been full of references to American standards which led to specious claims by the defence that Stefanoni had not followed ‘international standards’ : it is noted.

The Italian Scientific Police follow the guidelines of the ENFSI – the European Network Forensic Science Institutes. Dr Stefanoni observed that they followed these specific guidelines whereas Conti and Vecchiotti basically picked and mixed a random selection of international opinions:


“We followed the guidelines of the ENFSI, theirs is just a collage of different international opinions”.
The Chieffi Court (Supreme Court) The next level of appeal court overturned completely Hellman’s findings. It rebutted that the DNA sample of Meredith’s was ipso facto low quality just because it was LCN. ‘The experts’ had claimed, relying on their US sources that LCN sampling should only be done on special projects, such as missing persons or cadaver identification, and that there was not the technology as it was ‘too innovative’. Chieffi did not buy this, pointing to embryology studies. He scoffed at the idea of ‘the experts’ being more expert than Professor Novelli or Dr Torricelli. He censured Hellmann for failing to consider their equivalent expert knowledge. Chieffi was particularly critical of ‘the experts’ refusing to test the remaining knife sample, calling their reasoning, ‘intellectually dishonest’. 25 March 2013, Chieffi ordered the case back to the Appeal court to consider the DNA evidence again, amongst other issues, and that the knife sample be tested. One suspects ‘the experts’ were loath to test the sample in case it turned out be further DNA of Meredith, and this may be why Chieffi smelt a rat.

The Nencini Court (Appeal Court) Nencini made it clear in a newspaper interview it was not within his remit to criticise ‘the experts’, but rather, to assess the legal rectitude of the Massei court decision, which Hellmann patently failed to do. However, criticise he does. He directs to Barni that ‘no US standards’ are to be quoted. In upholding the findings of the Massei court he makes the following point in his reasoning about the DNA of the knife and bra clasp: He upholds that the Forensic Police, aside from some human error, acted correctly and dismissed defence claims that Stefanoni had withheld raw data, and as claimed by ‘the experts’, citing documentary proof the information had been deposited. Nencini reinstated the convictions, 31 January 2014, and dismissed the claim of contamination. The sample on the knife ‘the experts’ had claimed was ‘starch’ and ‘too low LCN’ was successfully tested and found to be that of Amanda Knox.

The claim it was contaminated was Marasca-Bruno pulling it out of thin air, a claim which was never tried, tested, cross-examined nor proven in a merits or Appeal Court. The reason the pair were acquitted was thanks to interference from outside the court.


Thanks for proving my point once again.
 
The courts accepted Stefanoni's reports. Crini successfully argued at the Nencini merits court that C& V’s report had been full of references to American standards which led to specious claims by the defence that Stefanoni had not followed ‘international standards’ : it is noted.

The Italian Scientific Police follow the guidelines of the ENFSI – the European Network Forensic Science Institutes. Dr Stefanoni observed that they followed these specific guidelines whereas Conti and Vecchiotti basically picked and mixed a random selection of international opinions:


“We followed the guidelines of the ENFSI, theirs is just a collage of different international opinions”.
The Chieffi Court (Supreme Court) The next level of appeal court overturned completely Hellman’s findings. It rebutted that the DNA sample of Meredith’s was ipso facto low quality just because it was LCN. ‘The experts’ had claimed, relying on their US sources that LCN sampling should only be done on special projects, such as missing persons or cadaver identification, and that there was not the technology as it was ‘too innovative’. Chieffi did not buy this, pointing to embryology studies. He scoffed at the idea of ‘the experts’ being more expert than Professor Novelli or Dr Torricelli. He censured Hellmann for failing to consider their equivalent expert knowledge. Chieffi was particularly critical of ‘the experts’ refusing to test the remaining knife sample, calling their reasoning, ‘intellectually dishonest’. 25 March 2013, Chieffi ordered the case back to the Appeal court to consider the DNA evidence again, amongst other issues, and that the knife sample be tested. One suspects ‘the experts’ were loath to test the sample in case it turned out be further DNA of Meredith, and this may be why Chieffi smelt a rat.

The Nencini Court (Appeal Court) Nencini made it clear in a newspaper interview it was not within his remit to criticise ‘the experts’, but rather, to assess the legal rectitude of the Massei court decision, which Hellmann patently failed to do. However, criticise he does. He directs to Barni that ‘no US standards’ are to be quoted. In upholding the findings of the Massei court he makes the following point in his reasoning about the DNA of the knife and bra clasp: He upholds that the Forensic Police, aside from some human error, acted correctly and dismissed defence claims that Stefanoni had withheld raw data, and as claimed by ‘the experts’, citing documentary proof the information had been deposited. Nencini reinstated the convictions, 31 January 2014, and dismissed the claim of contamination. The sample on the knife ‘the experts’ had claimed was ‘starch’ and ‘too low LCN’ was successfully tested and found to be that of Amanda Knox.

The claim it was contaminated was Marasca-Bruno pulling it out of thin air, a claim which was never tried, tested, cross-examined nor proven in a merits or Appeal Court. The reason the pair were acquitted was thanks to interference from outside the court.
When it comes to the knife, there is a massive elephant in the room that Vixen ignores and that is the characteristics of the knife would have made it impossible to have been used to stab Meredith or contain her DNA.

The knife was picked at random with no other knives taken from Raffaele’s kitchen or the cottage. Is it credible a knife collected under these circumstances was the murder weapon.
The knife didn’t match a bloody imprint on the bed.
The knife was too large to have caused the two smaller wounds.
There was bruising on the fatal wound which indicated the knife had gone all the way in. The length of the fatal wound was 8 cm whilst the length of the knife was 17 cm which indicated the knife couldn’t have caused the larger wound.
The knife didn’t have any blood or human biological material on it.
The defence had no objection to the knife being opened while the prosecution didn’t want the knife opened.

Clearly a prosecution would not need to resort to these tactics if they had a solid DNA profile.

“Patrizia Stefanoni claimed the amount of DNA on the knife blade was “in the order of some hundreds of picograms”. She claimed quantification had been performed by real-time PCR, which was untrue ( see C-V report – Knife quantification ).

The truth: A test was performed with a Qubit Fluorometer which was negative (no DNA). Two other previous tests for blood were also negative. Cytological tests that should have been performed were not. The test results after PCR (very low RFU), and a failure to perform negative control tests or implement adequate measures to prevent contamination, suggest contamination occurred from previous tests of Meredith’s DNA, that is Meredith’s DNA was not on the knife blade.”



  • The prosecution hid the results of early and decisive DNA testing excluding Sollecito as the sexual assailant, securing on improper grounds the pretrial incarceration of Sollecito and Knox (and Lumumba) to the severe prejudice of the defense.
  • The prosecution concealed the initial results for tests performed on the two key items of evidence , i.e., the kitchen knife (Rep. 36B) and the bra-clasp (Rep. 165B), and instead, produced only the results of suspicious “do over” tests (reruns), without disclosing the data from the initial tests or even the fact that the subsequent tests are “do overs”.
  • The prosecution concealed that the kitchen knife profile was generated within a series of tests for which 90 percent of the results have been suppressed, strongly suggesting the occurrence of a severe contamination event that the prosecution continues to hide.
  • The prosecution claims that contamination of the bra clasp was impossible, even though the bra clasp profile was processed during a series of tests for which there is documented proof of contamination.
  • The prosecution falsely portrayed the DNA lab as pristine and perfectly maintained, even though the lab’s own documents demonstrate that it was plagued with repeated contamination events and machine malfunctions that were known to the lab.
  • The prosecution has withheld the results from a massive number of DNA tests (well over 100), including probably exculpatory profiles relating to the sexual assault and the secondary crime scene downstairs.
  • The prosecution has hidden all of the records of the DNA amplification process—the most likely place for laboratory contamination to have occurred—including all of the contamination control tests for this process.
Lies told by Vixen regarding the knife



Post dated 10.05.2016

Claim: Only one was of sufficient quality to produce a near full profile (15 alleles : legal standard UK =10) of the murder victim, Mez.

Truth: The prosecution never claimed there were 15 alleles on the knife.

Post dated 11.05.2016

The defence on all sides have agreed without challenge that the DNA on the knife did indeed yield a near perfect profile of Mez.

Truth: The defence teams have never accepted there was a full DNA profile of Meredith on the knife and there is no record of this.

Post dated 22.03.2016

Claim: Stefanoni found 12 bits of tissue on the blade.

Truth: Stefanoni found no such tissue on the blade and the prosecution have never claimed there was any human biological material on the blade. When C&V tested the knife it was negative for the human species.

If the prosecution’s case was so solid, why does Vixen have to resort to making claims not backed up by evidence? The knife destroys two common claims made by Vixen.

The prosecution had hard evidence against Amanda and Raffaele

How can evidence such as a knife whose characteristics would have made it impossible to have been used to stab Meredith or contain her DNA be classed as hard evidence? Why would the prosecution have to resort to using this type of evidence if they have solid credible evidence at their disposal? Why is that with six years to argue their case by the time of the Nencini court, a knife which could not have been used to stab Meredith or contain her DNA is the best evidence the prosecution could come up with and almost two decades after Meredith’s murder Vixen has to argue her case on the basis of this evidence?

If the prosecution had solid evidence such as a DNA profile of Meredith on the knife, why did Stefanoni have to resort to the tactics I described in the previous post engaging in the massive suppression of evidence and lying and Vixen has to resort to lying about the knife? If there was solid evidence against Amanda and Raffaele, why does Vixen have to resort to absurd arguments that tests should be done to establish if Meredith’s DNA was on a knife when the characteristics of the knife meant that this DNA can’t exist six years after Meredith’s murder? Why did Vixen have to resort to making false accusations that C&V lied?



The notion Amanda was railroaded by a backward and corrupt Italian justice system is a myth and the Massei and Nencini trials were fair

If the above notion is a myth, how do you explain the following

*Amanda being convicted on the basis of evidence with zero credibility such as a knife whose characteristics made it impossible to have been used to stab Meredith or contain her DNA.

*Massei, Chiefi and Nencini ignored the fact knife could not have been used to stab Meredith or contain her DNA and that Stefnoni had to resort to suppressing evidence and lying.

*How can Amanda be convicted on the basis of Meredith’s DNA being on the knife when the tactics Stefanoni had to resort to clearly showed there was no valid DNA of Meredith on the knife?

*Stefanoni was freely allowed to lie without facing any consequences.
 
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Once again, you ignore the thrust of the argument to concentrate on a non-sequitur.

Once again, you ignore the thrust of the argument to concentrate on a non-sequitur.
I explained why Salduz is relevant to the Knox case and Hamza is not. Instead of presenting a counterargument, you resort to a strawman. Predictable.
 
Your arguments are all centred around obvious lies, which is why I don't have the time to bother with them.
Sure. You just don't have the time to bother with them. Uh-huh. Right. Gotcha. That's why.

If you want to pretend the footprint is Guede's, that's your decision. You can't force me, who can see the truth of the matter, to pretend it belongs to anyone other that RS,
Were you stamping your foot when you typed that?
together with ALL the other evidence against him.
You might want to send a letter to Marasca and Bruno and inform them of ALL this other evidence against him.
 
The courts accepted Stefanoni's reports.
Once again, you dishonestly use the word "courtS" when not all courts accepted Stefanoni's reports. Hellmann and Marasca did not.
Crini successfully argued at the Nencini merits court that C& V’s report had been full of references to American standards which led to specious claims by the defence that Stefanoni had not followed ‘international standards’ : it is noted.
Nencini was an appellate court, not a merits court. Nencini was overturned: "There was no shortage of glaring errors in the underlying fabric of the sentence in question," the [Marasca] court wrote. Nencini was also criticized for having "bought into a “theory of complicity” – suggesting, for instance, that Knox had been resentful of her flatmate – with few facts to back them up."
The Italian Scientific Police follow the guidelines of the ENFSI – the European Network Forensic Science Institutes. Dr Stefanoni observed that they followed these specific guidelines whereas Conti and Vecchiotti basically picked and mixed a random selection of international opinions:


“We followed the guidelines of the ENFSI, theirs is just a collage of different international opinions”.
The Chieffi Court (Supreme Court) The next level of appeal court overturned completely Hellman’s findings. It rebutted that the DNA sample of Meredith’s was ipso facto low quality just because it was LCN. ‘The experts’ had claimed, relying on their US sources that LCN sampling should only be done on special projects, such as missing persons or cadaver identification, and that there was not the technology as it was ‘too innovative’. Chieffi did not buy this, pointing to embryology studies. He scoffed at the idea of ‘the experts’ being more expert than Professor Novelli or Dr Torricelli. He censured Hellmann for failing to consider their equivalent expert knowledge. Chieffi was particularly critical of ‘the experts’ refusing to test the remaining knife sample, calling their reasoning, ‘intellectually dishonest’. 25 March 2013, Chieffi ordered the case back to the Appeal court to consider the DNA evidence again, amongst other issues, and that the knife sample be tested. One suspects ‘the experts’ were loath to test the sample in case it turned out be further DNA of Meredith, and this may be why Chieffi smelt a rat.

The Nencini Court (Appeal Court) Nencini made it clear in a newspaper interview it was not within his remit to criticise ‘the experts’, but rather, to assess the legal rectitude of the Massei court decision, which Hellmann patently failed to do. However, criticise he does. He directs to Barni that ‘no US standards’ are to be quoted. In upholding the findings of the Massei court he makes the following point in his reasoning about the DNA of the knife and bra clasp: He upholds that the Forensic Police, aside from some human error, acted correctly and dismissed defence claims that Stefanoni had withheld raw data, and as claimed by ‘the experts’, citing documentary proof the information had been deposited. Nencini reinstated the convictions, 31 January 2014, and dismissed the claim of contamination. The sample on the knife ‘the experts’ had claimed was ‘starch’ and ‘too low LCN’ was successfully tested and found to be that of Amanda Knox.

The claim it was contaminated was Marasca-Bruno pulling it out of thin air, a claim which was never tried, tested, cross-examined nor proven in a merits or Appeal Court. The reason the pair were acquitted was thanks to interference from outside the court.
The prosecution claimed that Stefanoni followed ENFSI guidelines. That doesn't make it true.

That Stefanoni followed the guidelines of ENFSI is disproven by the police's own video of the crime scene.
Do ENFSI guidelines include
1. not changing gloves between handling items at the crime scene,
2. only changing gloves when something is obviously dirty, or when the item is wet,
3. handing evidence around to several others,
4. collecting evidence without tongs,
5. storing evidence so that it rots or rusts?

To claim the dirt and hair shown on Stefanoni's admittedly unchanged latex glove was just a "shadow" is ludicrous and shows the depth of denial you go to in order to try to discredit C&V. It ain't working.
 
Once again, you dishonestly use the word "courtS" when not all courts accepted Stefanoni's reports. Hellmann and Marasca did not.

Nencini was an appellate court, not a merits court. Nencini was overturned: "There was no shortage of glaring errors in the underlying fabric of the sentence in question," the [Marasca] court wrote. Nencini was also criticized for having "bought into a “theory of complicity” – suggesting, for instance, that Knox had been resentful of her flatmate – with few facts to back them up."

The prosecution claimed that Stefanoni followed ENFSI guidelines. That doesn't make it true.

That Stefanoni followed the guidelines of ENFSI is disproven by the police's own video of the crime scene.
Do ENFSI guidelines include
1. not changing gloves between handling items at the crime scene,
2. only changing gloves when something is obviously dirty, or when the item is wet,
3. handing evidence around to several others,
4. collecting evidence without tongs,
5. storing evidence so that it rots or rusts?

To claim the dirt and hair shown on Stefanoni's admittedly unchanged latex glove was just a "shadow" is ludicrous and shows the depth of denial you go to in order to try to discredit C&V. It ain't working.
Stacyhs, I agree with the entire content of your post, but I have one quibble. The Italian Courts of Appeal are different from, for example, US Courts of Appeal, which primarily review whether lower court decisions followed procedural and constitutional law and typically secondarily review whether the judgment of the jury was "reasonable", but do not admit new substantive evidence to retry a case. The Italian Courts of Appeal are authorized under Italian law to admit new evidence and to retry a case, if the judge believes that to be necessary. The Hellmann Court of Appeal admitted quashed the Massei Court verdict, admitted new evidence and retried the case. The Nencini Court of Appeal was a referral court that accepted new evidence (the DNA profile test of the other knife blade sample, which turned out to be Knox's DNA with some contamination, possibly from police handling, as found by the Carabineiri DNA lab. Nencini then went on to redo the verdict and Motivation Report based on arbitrary and illogial reasoning, some of which had been suggested by the Chieffi CSC panel MR. But this redoing of the verdict and MR was indeed an evaluation of the merits. In Italy, even the CSC review of a case may get into the merits, because CPP` Article 606, paragraph 1, subparagraph e) allows appeals on the grounds of a judgment, in particular whether the grounds are missing or inadequate, contradictory, or manifestly illogical, as evident within the text of the MR or other trial documents.
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Once again, you dishonestly use the word "courtS" when not all courts accepted Stefanoni's reports. Hellmann and Marasca did not.

Nencini was an appellate court, not a merits court. Nencini was overturned:

<snip>

Nencini was a merits court as far as the issues handed back down by the Chieffi was concerned.
 
Stacyhs, I agree with the entire content of your post, but I have one quibble. The Italian Courts of Appeal are different from, for example, US Courts of Appeal, which primarily review whether lower court decisions followed procedural and constitutional law and typically secondarily review whether the judgment of the jury was "reasonable", but do not admit new substantive evidence to retry a case. The Italian Courts of Appeal are authorized under Italian law to admit new evidence and to retry a case, if the judge believes that to be necessary. The Hellmann Court of Appeal admitted quashed the Massei Court verdict, admitted new evidence and retried the case. The Nencini Court of Appeal was a referral court that accepted new evidence (the DNA profile test of the other knife blade sample, which turned out to be Knox's DNA with some contamination, possibly from police handling, as found by the Carabineiri DNA lab. Nencini then went on to redo the verdict and Motivation Report based on arbitrary and illogial reasoning, some of which had been suggested by the Chieffi CSC panel MR. But this redoing of the verdict and MR was indeed an evaluation of the merits. In Italy, even the CSC review of a case may get into the merits, because CPP` Article 606, paragraph 1, subparagraph e) allows appeals on the grounds of a judgment, in particular whether the grounds are missing or inadequate, contradictory, or manifestly illogical, as evident within the text of the MR or other trial documents.
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I do not disagree with your post, but I think we're talking about two different things. Vixen said "the Nencini merits court" and from my understanding, the "merits court" is the Court of First Instance, not the Appellate Court. However, the Appellate Court can rule on the merits of the Court of First Instance.
 
Nencini was a merits court as far as the issues handed back down by the Chieffi was concerned.
An appellate court can rule on the merits of the lower court. But, as mentioned to Numbers, a "merits court" is a Court of First Instance.

I notice you do not address the rest of my post regarding Stefanoni not having followed ENSFI guidelines.

Still waiting for your admission that I never said what you claimed I did. So is TruthCalls. But we all know you're just going to ignore it, don't we?
 
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I do not disagree with your post, but I think we're talking about two different things. Vixen said "the Nencini merits court" and from my understanding, the "merits court" is the Court of First Instance, not the Appellate Court. However, the Appellate Court can rule on the merits of the Court of First Instance.
I'm not sure what Vixen means by "merits court". But here's a definition of "decision on the merits" in contrast to a "procedural" decision:

In legal proceedings, a decision “on the merits” is significant because it addresses substantive issues rather than procedural ones. It determines how courts resolve disputes based on factual and legal grounds and affects the finality of judgments, appeals, and future litigation.

A decision “on the merits” is distinct from a procedural dismissal, which ends a case due to technical issues like lack of jurisdiction or improper venue. Procedural dismissals do not resolve the underlying facts or legal arguments of a case.

Decisions “on the merits” require courts to analyze substantive claims and defenses by applying relevant legal principles to the facts. This involves assessing statutory provisions, case law, and legal doctrines. Courts evaluate whether claims meet the applicable standard of proof, which varies—preponderance of the evidence in civil cases and beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal cases. Evidence such as witness testimonies, documents, and expert opinions is weighed to determine if it supports the legal claims, ensuring a just judgment.

Evaluating evidence is central to deciding a case on the merits. Admissible evidence must comply with rules governing relevancy, materiality, and reliability.... Courts assess credibility and reliability, examining witness testimonies for consistency and truthfulness. Expert opinions must be grounded in sufficient facts and reliable methodologies....

Source: https://legalclarity.org/what-does-a-decision-on-the-merits-mean-in-legal-cases/

Note that the source is about US legal procedures; I have excerpted those parts of the source text that are relevant to both US and Italian courts. US appellate procedures, also discussed in the source text, are quite different from Italian ones.

Not only can the Italian appellate court (Court of Appeal) rule on the merits found by the first instance court, the judge of the Court of Appeal may choose to renew the trial evidentiary hearing (CPP Article 603). The judge may do so at the request of one of the parties (defense, prosecutor, or private party, if any) or on the judge's own decision (if he believes it necessary).
 
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I do not disagree with your post, but I think we're talking about two different things. Vixen said "the Nencini merits court" and from my understanding, the "merits court" is the Court of First Instance, not the Appellate Court. However, the Appellate Court can rule on the merits of the Court of First Instance.
Nencini did not just 'rule on the merits of the First Instance', it weighed up the merits, found facts and cross-examination was by all the parties on the specific issues Chieffi Supreme Court sent back down to it*. No wonder you are confused about what is factual and what is not.

*(in place of Hellmann, which was so egregious it wasn't sent back down to him).
 
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