Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ivor the Engineer]

Exactly right! You, not understanding what she said, pretty much shows everyone that she is right... you're a man, with a man's perspective, projecting a man's opinion in an attempt to put down this damned, uppity woman because she just wont agree with you, and bloody well doesn't know her place.

...said a loud mouthed man!

 

[Manger Douse]

I find that odd. If I was being strip searched my first criteria (if I got a choice) would be having the most gentle and friendly looking person to do it. What the person's sex was would probably not be high on the list.

Like I told you @Thermal and still no concern for the woman's feelings

 

[Thermal]

No one is inviting most trans identifying males into female spaces either.

Nor does this have anything to do with my question. If treating someone else the same way that I'm being treated is treating them as a second class citizen, then that implies that I'm being treated as a second class citizen. Conversely, if I am not being treated as a second class citizen, then treating someone else the same way as I am treated is not treating them as a second class citizen. See how that works?

Honestly, no, but it's because of the unusual spin you're putting on it.

Hold up. You are misrepresenting her position. She's not claiming to do this at her sole discretion. She's claiming that ALL the women in the bathroom together have a collective ability to grant permission.

Youre reading in. Pixel said "we", without the more specific parameters you project here. And I highly doubt a poll gets taken on the spot. I think she means what she said earlier, about regulars in a women's locker room deciding on their own, and never considering the input of other women who might be using the space.

So the equivalent would not be me inviting some woman (not a girl, that's another weird substitution you made to make it creepy)

No, like a lot of people in the 21st century, I'll sometimes refer to men as boys casually, and women as girls. You're being weird and pointlessly archaic again.

in at my sole discretion, but all the men collectively.

Have you considered the hypothesis of it being only ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ *you* in the restroom? Must it be at the Fire Marshall's max capacity?

I would personally only accept an invitation into the women's bathroom from anyone if there was actually some need for my presence. For a hypothetical example, if there was some emergency need for someone stronger than any of the women there. Not sure what relevance this has.

Pixel gave permission, remember? That she says she has the privilege of doling out?

But you say you wouldn't go in? Sounds like you and Ms Pixel diverge on your view of who could enter and why. Which was the freaking point.

That is no longer the trans advocate position.

Great! IDGAF.

 

[Thermal]

You could speculate that she is aware of the general norm that most people prefer to have such searches conducted (if they must be) by members of the same sex class as themselves.

I'm not sure most men would agree. Which would you prefer?

 

[Thermal]

Just stop this - Being devoutly religious is an obstinate attachment to a belief. Quite literally the dictionary definition of bigotry and I'll be wasting no more time about this childishness

Dynamite.

How about if this hypothetical woman was once violently raped by another man (obviously) or men - could she object to intimately searching you?

I'd find it difficult to believe she held a job conducting strip searches, if so. In any case, her employer would have words with her about failure to perform te duties she previously said she was willing to.

In Thermal's World, yes she could object on those grounds, and it would not be bigoted, but the effect of reliving her trauma, which she was perhaps unaware that would be rekindled by strip searching a man.

Are you going anywhere with all this?

 

[Ziggurat]

Honestly, no, but it's because of the unusual spin you're putting on it.

There's nothing unusual about it. Treating males as males and females as females doesn't constitute treating anyone as second class citizens.

Youre reading in. Pixel said "we", without the more specific parameters you project here.

First off, basically all the women here have been saying this for pages and pages and pages. This position isn't peculiar to her. Maybe you can't figure out anything left unsaid in one specific post, but it's all out there. The fact that she didn't make it explicit in that one post doesn't change the fact that I correctly described her position, you did not. For example:

And yes if any woman has an issue with a male in their safe space then that male should leave, even if the rest are OK with it.

In other words, Pixel's explicit position is that ALL women in that space need to consent in order to allow a male in. She IS NOT claiming that she alone can grant that consent on behalf of or in contradiction to any other women there.

And I highly doubt a poll gets taken on the spot.

That's not how Pixel is proposing to make it work.

I think she means what she said earlier, about regulars in a women's locker room deciding on their own, and never considering the input of other women who might be using the space.

Absolutely not.

Pixel gave permission, remember? That she says she has the privaige of doling out?

No she didn't.

But you say you wouldn't go in? Sounds like you and Ms Pixel diverge on your view of who could enter and why. Which was the freaking point.

That's... not how consent works. Not only does Pixel not get to grant consent on behalf of other women (nor does she claim to, see above), that consent (individual or collective) can never compel me. If I don't want to go in, nobody can force me to even if I'm allowed to. So there's absolutely no divergence here at all. You're grasping at straws here.

 

[smartcooky]

Why was it much harder?

Because back then, they were transvestites. They often had surgery (sometimes minimal, sometimes maximal) and went to great effort to look the part.... and they NEVER, EVER claimed to be actual, women. The ONLY women-only spaces they would attempt to enter were public toilets, where they were somewhere between accepted and tolerated by women.

The situation now is very different. Transgender identified males demand access to ALL women-only facilities, without exceptions - toilets, changing rooms, spas & health clubs, domestic violence shelters, rape crisis centres, women's hospitals and women's wards in general hospitals and prisons. They will scream from the rooftops any time a space, however small, is reserved for woman (see Tickle v Giggle in Australia). As an obvious, biological male, I can now waltz right into a women's toilet, and if challenged, can say the magic words "I am a woman" and there is NOTHING the women in there can do to remove me. If they try THEY will be labelled as transphobes, if they try to remove me physically, I can make an assault complaint, and THEY can be charged with assault.

This is the world YOU advocate that we ought to be living in

 

[smartcooky]

Just out of curiosity, what terminology have your granddaughters be taught to use to refer to transsexual men?

I don't know. I'll ask

And do they find transsexual men 'weird and creepy' too?

Yes

ETA: Transmen, i.e. transgender identified women, are not the topic here.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm not sure most men would agree. Which would you prefer?

If I had to get strip searched, I would prefer to be strip searched by another male.

 

[smartcooky]

...said a loud mouthed man!

Yeah, the difference being, I am a man who supports women in their fight to be allowed determine what is best for them on this issue.

You and @Thermal, on the other hand, have displayed for all to see, your utter contempt and disrespect for women who you clearly believe, don't know their place.

 

[Manger Douse]

Dynamite.

I'd find it difficult to believe she held a job conducting strip searches, if so. In any case, her employer would have words with her about failure to perform te duties she previously said she was willing to.

In Thermal's World, yes she could object on those grounds, and it would not be bigoted, but the effect of reliving her trauma, which she was perhaps unaware that would be rekindled by strip searching a man.

Are you going anywhere with all this?

Yes - the fact that you didn't immediately come up with my example in this hypothetical and instead claimed that being devoutly religious isn't actually bigotry (somehow) shows an outstanding lack of empathy

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Like I told you @Thermal and still no concern for the woman's feelings

Because back then, they were transvestites. They often had surgery (sometimes minimal, sometimes maximal) and went to great effort to look the part.... and they NEVER, EVER claimed to be actual, women. The ONLY women-only spaces they would attempt to enter were public toilets, where they were somewhere between accepted and tolerated by women.

The situation now is very different. Transgender identified males demand access to ALL women-only facilities, without exceptions - toilets, changing rooms, spas & health clubs, domestic violence shelters, rape crisis centres, women's hospitals and women's wards in general hospitals and prisons. They will scream from the rooftops any time a space, however small, is reserved for woman (see Tickle v Giggle in Australia). As an obvious, biological male, I can now waltz right into a women's toilet, and if challenged, can say the magic words "I am a woman" and there is NOTHING the women in there can do to remove me. If they try THEY will be labelled as transphobes, if they try to remove me physically, I can make an assault complaint, and THEY can be charged with assault.

This is the world YOU advocate that we ought to be living in

The world I advocate that we ought to be living in is where reasonable accommodation is made for all groups.

 

[Thermal]

Yes - the fact that you didn't immediately come up with my example in this hypothetical and instead claimed that being devoutly religious isn't actually bigotry (somehow) shows an outstanding lack of empathy

Your question was whether I would take any reason given to be non bigoted, not some half-wit speed test till I came up with a very specific one you had in mind, which was pretty stupid, considering the job she took. I'll ask yet again: were you going somewhere with that or was it all incoherent babbling?

 

[Manger Douse]

The world I advocate that we ought to be living in is where reasonable accommodation is made for all groups.

Men take priority in the world you advocate

 

[d4m10n]

I'm not sure most men would agree. Which would you prefer?

I was recently given the chance to get up close and personal with a TSA agent who strongly resembled the actor Erik "Surprise, mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊!" King, on account of metallic aglets attached to the waistband ties on my workout pants. It was a little awkward having him rub against bits which I'd rather keep to myself (and my wife) but it would have been much more awkward to have a woman performing the same task.

There is a sense in which this reveals my "gender identity" in the social norms sense of that phrase favored by Katherine Jenkins (linked here).

 

[Manger Douse]

Your question was whether I would take any reason given to be non bigoted, not some half-wit speed test til I came up with a very specific one
you had in mind, which was pretty stupid, considering the job she took. I'll ask yet again: were you going somewhere with that or was it all incoherent babbling?

I think I mentioned it was a hypothetical? You blaming her for taking this job despite being a rape victim(!) now is irrelevant - your trip into the world of Lewis Carroll before thinking about this hypothetical woman's feelings is relevant.. I'll say yet again: your lack of empathy is outstanding

 

[lionking]

A small number of people, I'd estimate 0.5% might not like it, but hey, they're a tiny minority and will just have to undergo inclusive toilet desensitisation therapy until they accept the reality that unisex toilets work. A few of them may self harm, or even go as far to commit suicide, but that's a price I'm willing to pay.

I think gender is a useful and valid construct that is probably encoded in the brain. For those of us where it matches our biological sex it is invisible to us. How much of this is nature and how much is nurture I don't know. My feeling is it's mostly hard coded than learned. Does that constitute "a lot"?

No, there isn't. You're making this up. Unisex toilets work just fine.

In this very thread not long ago polls from the UK showed strong and growing resistance to trans demands for access to women’s restrooms, change rooms, sports etc. your 0.5% guess is laughable.

 

[theprestige]

#notallmen

I'm sure there are plenty of men who are perfectly safe in a women's restroom. But we're not talking about all men, a tiny fraction of whom are predators. We're talking about a tiny fraction of men, a large fraction of whom are predators.

I'm not too worried about men in general. But any man who claims an entitlement to enter women's safe spaces whenever he wants goes up a few notches on my threat meter.

That's how things stand.

 

[angrysoba]

Because back then, they were transvestites. They often had surgery (sometimes minimal, sometimes maximal) and went to great effort to look the part.... and they NEVER, EVER claimed to be actual, women. The ONLY women-only spaces they would attempt to enter were public toilets, where they were somewhere between accepted and tolerated by women.

The situation now is very different. Transgender identified males demand access to ALL women-only facilities, without exceptions - toilets, changing rooms, spas & health clubs, domestic violence shelters, rape crisis centres, women's hospitals and women's wards in general hospitals and prisons. They will scream from the rooftops any time a space, however small, is reserved for woman (see Tickle v Giggle in Australia). As an obvious, biological male, I can now waltz right into a women's toilet, and if challenged, can say the magic words "I am a woman" and there is NOTHING the women in there can do to remove me. If they try THEY will be labelled as transphobes, if they try to remove me physically, I can make an assault complaint, and THEY can be charged with assault.

This is the world YOU advocate that we ought to be living in

Pretty sure that transvestites did not have surgery.

 

[smartcooky]

The world I advocate that we ought to be living in is where reasonable accommodation is made for all groups.

Such idealism is misplaced and rarely achievable because human nature is what it is?

If you insist on having on unisex toilets, transpeople will label you a bigot and a transphobe

If you insist on trans identified males being allowed access to women's toilets, women will (rightly) label you a misogynist

Joseph Heller had a word for this