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Merged Concerns over baby killer ignored? / Nurse Lucy Letby killed babies in her care

Vixen said:
I would thank you to watch your impolite language and tone. Lionking was talking about how he knew from the outset Chamberlain was innocent and now he knows from the same intuition (?) that Letby is 'wrongly imprisoned'. But how does he 'know' this? Given there has been a lengthy trial in front of two different juries, whose verdict was 'guily' in fifteen cases, having heard ALL of the evidence, and two applications to the Court of Appeal turned down, how does Lionking intuit Letby is 'wrongly imprisoned'? It is obviously nonsense. This is why PR agencies in the guise of so-called 'innocence' campaigners are so despicable. They play on people's natural sense of fair play, compassion and justice. Maltin PR, Letby's new PR agency, has invaded public spaces such as the left-leaning GUARDIAN, relying on people's natural hatred of injustice and the DAILY MAIL/TELEGRAPH full of semi-educated readers happy to take the word of rabid columnists such as Barbara Vine, Knapton, Hitchins, Dorries as being the 'voice of the people' or Phil Hammond of PRIVATE EYE as another exciting injustice campaign, rather like the PO/Horizon one, cynically pushing a faked agenda of 'MOJ'. Why do they do this? because they know from past history - Chamberlain, et al - that it works.

A true sceptic can see right through this. Only the gullible easily taken in by PR believe the hype that females are not capable of heinous crimes beyond the imagination of most people. In any case, Lindy Chamberlain, Sally Clarke and the most recent 'unsafe' conviction in Australia of a woman who spent twenty years in jail for the murder of four of her children, is not a good analogy here, as these were mothers accused of killling their own children. Medics, such as Geen, Allitt, Norris (aka Campbell), Shipman et al are quite different types of murder. (a) They are opportunistic, (b) they are serial, (c) the victims are not known to them personally, (d) they are acting as 'god': a power thing. The idea that Letby is female, therefore she is just like all other female convicted killers is a sweeping generalisation, which is better avoided. Does she have any similarity at all to Chamberlain? I would argue none at all, other than gender. And the massive PR campaign.
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Point of information: Shipman knew his victims in his capacity as their GP.

Anyway, as for the Chamberlain case, Lionking only brought it up to mention the parallels he sees. You seem to be arguing that the analogy doesn’t work on the grounds that Chamberlaib was exonerated and Letby hadn’t been yet, but since her verdicts are the point of contention, I’d say that is a circular argument in the context of this thread.

That said, argument from analogy is a fallacy, but I don’t think anybody is arguing that Letby’s convictions are unsafe because Chamberlain’s were wrong.
 
jeremyp said:
Point of information: Shipman knew his victims in his capacity as their GP.

Anyway, as for the Chamberlain case, Lionking only brought it up to mention the parallels he sees. You seem to be arguing that the analogy doesn’t work on the grounds that Chamberlaib was exonerated and Letby hadn’t been yet, but since her verdicts are the point of contention, I’d say that is a circular argument in the context of this thread.

That said, argument from analogy is a fallacy, but I don’t think anybody is arguing that Letby’s convictions are unsafe because Chamberlain’s were wrong.
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Well, yes, Shipman was apparently well-regarded. Terrific GP. Until someone who wasn't cremated was dug up, and they discovered his inveigling himself into the deceased's will. Speaking of which, one of Letby's fiercest supporters, of Lucia de Berk fame (there's another one), Dr. Richard Gill (PhD, not MD), believes Dr. Shipman was performing a compassionate euthanasia service.. Yes, that's right, you read that correctly. In the meantime, it has yet to be demonstrated that there is anything unsafe about Letby's convictions.
 
Vixen said:
Oh right, so let's do away with criminal courts of law and replace them with tv programmes; with the one you like best winning. catsmate is the new judge, everybody.
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Sigh. More straw infused nonsense.
 
Vixen said:
Having seen how effective PR is, and having read the views of others in opposition to mine, for example, Planigale, I have come to think perhaps Sally Clarke, for example, and Lindy Chamberlain, years later, were right to have come under suspicion and tried. As I said, no-one can ever know what REALLY happened, except the perp/s. A court can only weigh up the probability of whether they are guilty as charged. It is designed to give the benefit of a doubt to the defendant. To strengthen the prosecution's case before allowing it to go to court, the police have to build a convincing case - who used to make the decision to charge - the decision to charge decided by a body independent from the police, the CPS. The case is then passed over to yet another separate body, the judiciary. Again, the case is decided by a jury of twelve randomly selected members of the public 'faire and true', as described in the 16th century. I honestly cannot see how you 'just know' Letby was unfairly convicted x 15 times when her application to appeal has been refused twice.
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Oh dear jeebus.
 
Vixen said:
We are all still waiting for you to explain why you now believe Letby is wrongly imprisoned but all we seem to get is ad hominem.
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The evidence in favour of Letby's innocence has been discussed in this thread.
 
Vixen said:
Well, yes, Shipman was apparently well-regarded. Terrific GP. Until someone who wasn't cremated was dug up, and they discovered his inveigling himself into the deceased's will
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Irrelevant.
Vixen said:
. Speaking of which, one of Letby's fiercest supporters, of Lucia de Berk fame (there's another one), Dr. Richard Gill (PhD, not MD),
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Oh look Vixen is attempting to belittle someone's qualifications. Again.

You may be unaware that in the UK very few physicians have an 'MD', that degree is usually awarded as a a higher research degree, after a PhD.
In USAia a physician is awarded an MD, but this isn't up to the standard of a PhD as no original thesis is required.
Given that Gill is a mathematician and statistician his lack of a medical degree is utterly irrelevant.
So what are your qualifications?
Vixen said:
believes Dr. Shipman was performing a compassionate euthanasia service..
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Citation required.
Vixen said:
Yes, that's right, you read that correctly.
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The only publications involving Gill regarding Shipman is about the lack of statistical analysis of death trends around Shipman.
Vixen said:
In the meantime, it has yet to be demonstrated that there is anything unsafe about Letby's convictions.
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Except in the Real World.
 
catsmate said:
Irrelevant.

Oh look Vixen is attempting to belittle someone's qualifications. Again.

You may be unaware that in the UK very few physicians have an 'MD', that degree is usually awarded as a a higher research degree, after a PhD.
In USAia a physician is awarded an MD, but this isn't up to the standard of a PhD as no original thesis is required.
Given that Gill is a mathematician and statistician his lack of a medical degree is utterly irrelevant.
So what are your qualifications?

Citation required.

The only publications involving Gill regarding Shipman is about the lack of statistical analysis of death trends around Shipman.

Except in the Real World.
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I was simply pointing out - given this case revolves around medical opinion - that Gill is not a medic; he is a mathematician.


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Interesting study ten years ago, analysing the psychological and behavioural characteristics of hospital killers:

published in the Journal of Investigative Psychology Journal of Investigative Psychology and Offender Profiling, urges that “attendance data should be treated with caution as evidence in the investigation and prosecution of suspected HSKs. A spike in the numbers of deaths on the shifts of a suspected HSK may well be an indicator of wrongdoing. However, this should only be used in combination with other types of evidence, which may include some of the common red flags we discovered in our sample.”
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Serial killer nurses often gain notoriety among their colleagues before their crimes are exposed because they hold detailed morbid conversation with grieving relatives, new research into the characteristics of so-called “angels of death” has found.

Criminologists studying the traits of healthcare professionals who became multiple murderers found that most craved attention, switched hospitals frequently, had disciplinary problems and liked to talk about death or exhibited “odd behaviour when someone dies”.
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GUARDIAN
 
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