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Merged Concerns over baby killer ignored? / Nurse Lucy Letby killed babies in her care

Dealt with at trial. Letby supporters got very excited about the recent Norris referral as they claimed his conviction re insulin poisoning was just like Letby's. They have gone quiet now his appeal was rejected. What the Letby fans fail to mention is that the particular synthetic insulin involved was identified as being that specific to the CoCH. There weren't any natural antibodies being produced because the babies involved tested negative to infection that would cause such antibodies. Nice that a chemical engineer in New Zealand claims to know better than top British experts in -specifically - endocrinology and haemotology. And with access to the medical records. In addition, totally objective and neutral towards Letby, no dog in the fight, just straightforward medical data. .But what would they know? So much more exciting to dream up a conspiracy theory with a big baddie at the centre of it all.
 
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I'm not qualified to judge any of the scientific evidence, but I would point out that it's not an especially wild conspiracy theory to speculate that senior officials who had completely cocked up their jobs might look for, and find, a way to divert the blame for the resulting mess onto low level staff. It wouldn't be the first time, the recent Post Office scandal being a prime example.
 
Here's a summary of the ITV documentary by a poster on the other forum I belong to.
There are two things to know about Dewi Evans that weren't said in that summary 1) despite his billing, he couldn't be considered qualified enough to be an expert witness, because a) he was long retired from doctoring and b) his professional career didn't include the kind of neonatal care bing discussed and 2) he was heavily castigated in a trial that finished shortly before the Letby trial by the presiding judge for not adhering to the rules binding expert witness testimony, mainly by inflating his expertise and by being too easily lead by prosecutorial suspicions (it was well known that Evans would side with the prosecution in evidence for a good few years).
 
He's highly qualified. He set up the Neonatal hospital in South Wales. It is pointless comparing like for like because when he was working the NHS bands and grading were completely different. He's a pompous git for sure but likeability isn't a factor. He was heavily cross-examined by both prosecution and Ben Myers KC, defence, who is top drawer (unlike junior barrister, Mark MacDonald). The cases were independently reviewed by Dr Sandie Bohin and she came to similar conclusions. There was a third, who is now deceased. The trial was exhaustive. The post-it notes weren't even particularly relevant. If they were of no consequence to the case then KC Myers could have challenged their inclusion at the start in the pre-trial run-ups. As for Letby's old school friends and colleagues who wanted to testify as character witnesses, again the extremely experienced Judge, Justice Goss did not consider them to be relevant to the case. Whether Letby is likeable or not had no bearing on her guilt or innocence.
 
There are two things to know about Dewi Evans that weren't said in that summary 1) despite his billing, he couldn't be considered qualified enough to be an expert witness, because a) he was long retired from doctoring and b) his professional career didn't include the kind of neonatal care bing discussed and 2) he was heavily castigated in a trial that finished shortly before the Letby trial by the presiding judge for not adhering to the rules binding expert witness testimony, mainly by inflating his expertise and by being too easily lead by prosecutorial suspicions (it was well known that Evans would side with the prosecution in evidence for a good few years).
Correct. But @Vixen will hand-wave this away.
 
The ITV documentary is on YouTube.


1. Letby was always there when things went wrong. An expert statistician has examined this and found that the document produced at trial showing Letby was present for 24 adverse incidents completely omitted data for a number of other adverse incidents which occurred during the same period at times when Letby was not working. The prosecution had simply cherry picked the incidents where she was on duty and omitted everything else.

This is exactly what was done in the case of Lucia de Berk, which had had its successful appeal before Letby was charged. When I first heard about Letby I thought, surely to God the lessons of Lucia de Berk have been learned and they aren't just going to cherry-pick adverse clinical events that happened when the nurse in question was there, again. This time they must have solid evidence. Surely.

They didn't.
 
Sigh. No it hasn't. You've lying.
Very mature, I am sure. The police have currently passed twelve more cases to CPS. Letby's PR agency trying to drum up 'public outrage' is predictable. What would be interesting to discover is who is funding it all? Not one of the hospital execs facing gross negligent manslaughter charges, we hope. Letby had £1.5m of taxpayer money in Legal Aid plus a team of four top barristers. Yet she called only one witness: the plumber. Ask yourself, why? And why has she not waived legal privilege? But anyway, I'll leave you to hope and dream it is all a 'mistake'. See you again when the CCRC or the CoA throw it out.
 
Very mature, I am sure.
It's the response your lie deserved.
The police have currently passed twelve more cases to CPS.
Most of which do not involve Letby but the manifest troubles at the CoCH.
Letby's PR agency trying to drum up 'public outrage' is predictable.
Straw.
What would be interesting to discover is who is funding it all?
Did you ask?
Not one of the hospital execs facing gross negligent manslaughter charges, we hope.
Evidence for this insinuation?
Letby had £1.5m of taxpayer money in Legal Aid plus a team of four top barristers.
Nothing to do with the flaws in the case.
Yet she called only one witness: the plumber. Ask yourself, why? And why has she not waived legal privilege? But anyway, I'll leave you to hope and dream it is all a 'mistake'. See you again when the CCRC or the CoA throw it out.
Sigh. More silliness.
 
I've now watched the documentary. I better understand the argument about the apparent hyperinsulinaemia now, although it was touched on by the expert panel. It's a common issue with many types of assay, that all the analyte present in the sample is detected, although it may well be that only a small proportion of it is biologically active with the remainder being protein-bound (in this case antibody-bound) and so not biologically active. It's a bit like counting all the cars in a city, including the ones in car parks, and presenting that as the number of cars actively being driven on the roads. It's a regular issue with calcium. Usually we just assume half the detected calcium is biologically available, so the active calcium is directly proportional to the total calcium result and you just run with that, but you can request an ionised calcium assay to give you the actual bio-available calcium concentrations if you need it.

The programme explained that due to high levels of maternally derived antibody (passive immunity) neonatal babies have high levels of antibodies that bind insulin and so the total insulin result is artificially elevated and not clinically relevant. Meanwhile the c-peptide is not protein-bound and is cleared from the bloodstream, leaving the bound insulin behind on its own. Hence the appearance of a "factitious insulin poisoning" result which isn't real. I note there was a warning about this on the request form of the lab that did the assays, but the prosecution still presented the results as evidence of poisoning. This in-utero antibody transfer is not something that happens in animals due to a different placental structure so it's not something I was aware of, but I understand it now. It's astonishing this wasn't being picked up by the doctors in the neonatal unit.

As an aside (and please, I am not trying to derail this thread), I wish very much that someone would make a documentary like that about my Lockerbie findings. Such a documentary would absolutely kill the conviction stone dead, even more so than this one affects Letby's conviction. But I didn't get the book out until 12 years after the conviction and the circus had moved on. The documentary-makers that did approach me were only interested in pursuing their own pet theories about who actually carried out the bombing, and explaining the science of why the prosecution theory about how the bomb got on the plane was wrong wasn't really interesting to them.

I say this partly because I hit the same legal brick wall that's mentioned at the end of this documentary. All the evidence I relied on was available to the defence at the time of the original trial, and most of it was even presented in court. That's how I got access to it. It was a failure of both prosecution and defence to analyse the data properly, just as in the Letby case. I got my findings in front of the SCCRC, and they said, in writing, exactly what it's predicted the CCRC will say about the Letby submission. If this reasoning is correct then the prosecution case is utterly destroyed, however the evidence was available at trial, and we find nothing to support an allegation of defective representation (they practically never do), so hard luck, nice try, bye-bye.

This is a huge issue with the system that needs to be addressed in its own right, not just because of these two cases. It happens again and again. Even genuinely new evidence has been dismissed in some cases because "there was nothing stopping the defence from having looked for this at the time of the original trial." I kid you not.

If anyone wants to pick up on any of these points, there are threads on the CCRC and on the Lockerbie case where they can be discussed further.
 
This is exactly what was done in the case of Lucia de Berk, which had had its successful appeal before Letby was charged. When I first heard about Letby I thought, surely to God the lessons of Lucia de Berk have been learned and they aren't just going to cherry-pick adverse clinical events that happened when the nurse in question was there, again. This time they must have solid evidence. Surely.

They didn't.

It was the prosecution that cherry-picked the data, specifically because it would bolster their case.

What is sad is no one on the defense team seems to have understood the idea of cherry-picking and requested the complete data set for analysis.
 
It was the prosecution that cherry-picked the data, specifically because it would bolster their case.

What is sad is no one on the defense team seems to have understood the idea of cherry-picking and requested the complete data set for analysis.

There's another striking parallel to the Lockerbie trial here, as regards the defence case. Letby's defence engaged experts and commissioned reports and had access to a lot of material, but they only called the hospital plumber as a defence witness! Megrahi's defence had engaged experts and received expert reports and so on, but at the trial they called only four witnesses. The entire defence witness hearing took less than a day and a half, when the prosecution had taken literally months. (The prosecution had called a lot of witnesses who might have been expected to be defence witnesses, which was an interesting tactic.) The four witnesses spoke to fairly tangential points in the case.

As with Letby, the impression given was that they thought the prosecution case was already so riddled with reasonable doubt that they themselves were somewhat superfluous. Worse, rather than rigorously challenging what the prosecution was claiming they simply tried to blow smoke at it. They could have produced experts to challenge the identification evidence (which was appalling), to produce a competing analysis of the blast-damaged baggage container and its contents, and to demonstrate that the metallurgical results from the PCB fragment were not as the prosecution witnesses claimed. None of that happened, they just relied on, look here, the prosecution case is all speculation and full of holes, I rest my case.

This is exactly the tactic that is going to backfire horribly on appeal. All these arguments you didn't make, all these experts you didn't call, all these analyses you didn't commission, all could have been done at the trial of first instance, so they're going to be barred from an appeal. Even if they conclusively prove your client to be innocent. Checkmate.
 
As with Letby, the impression given was that they thought the prosecution case was already so riddled with reasonable doubt that they themselves were somewhat superfluous. Worse, rather than rigorously challenging what the prosecution was claiming they simply tried to blow smoke at it.
This is exactly the tactic that is going to backfire horribly on appeal. All these arguments you didn't make, all these experts you didn't call, all these analyses you didn't commission, all could have been done at the trial of first instance, so they're going to be barred from an appeal. Even if they conclusively prove your client to be innocent. Checkmate.

Your analysis appears to be sound: the defence thought the prosecution had a poor case and didn't pour a large effort into its defence in court. And as you noted, this can hurt them in the appeal.

It's a good lesson that although something may have a poor foundation to an expert, to people not so trained in the craft it may look solid. In fact, that's what skepticism and critical thinking are all about: showing that a given idea, statement, or hypothesis has or doesn't have evidence to back it up.

It appears that in both cases the defence teams badly misunderstood how to provide effective rebuttals to the prosecution's claims. The is especially troubling because they had the advantage of seeing the prosecution's entire case laid out before them in court. And the lack of a robust defence may be seen as an implicit agreement that the prosecution's case is strong.
 

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